Treaty Between TNI and TSP

[Unibot]

[quote name="Southern Bellz"] [quote name='"Eluvatar"]

Yeah its obvious' date=' he is mad Balder is not in a UDL spehere of influence and he feels uncomfortable there so he is trying to do that in TSP but flipped.? I dont think so. [/quote']

I don't think that's fair. At all.



Unibot is passionate about what he believes in, and I think overreacted to what he saw as bad policy.



There is not and has never been any UDL effort to influence the feeders toward its interests.



And if there ever is, I will resign.

From what Unibot has said, he feels uncomfortable in Balder, and he didn't want that to happen in TSP.



So to make sure it didn't happen he used arguments with no evidence, made sweeping generalizations about TNI, saying how he feels every raider action is evil. All of that has ZERO place in this assembly which is accepting of all people. If Unibot was left unchecked, there would have been a flipped situation in balder where only defenders and the defender allied felt comfortable.



I still am 100% convinced that UDL overstepped its bounds in some fashion. I will concede it wasnt a silent coup, or an organized effort, but a significant amount of weekend TSPers like Mahaj came pouring in to support the UDL hardline. In fact, not one person from the organization has even mentioned that this might be a sight cause for concern for non-UDL members.



TSP members are more than welcome to be a TSP national and a UDL member, but that doesn't give them the right to come here and then influence TSP. Unibot admitted he had an outside personal bias with TNI, that extends a lot from his position in UDL and having constant dealing with TNI, in which he brands TNI as his enemy. He called all of their past actions with TSP, insincere, and accused all of their words of being empty just because he has conditioned himself to see them only as an enemy.



Then because he makes a mistake, he suggests that TSP changes its citizenship laws to be less welcoming and closed. I say the UDL needs to change ITS policy of what its members should and shouldn't do if it doesn't want to be held accountable for its actions. [/quote]

Um, it wouldn't hurt non-UDL members because most non-UDL members aren't defenders. I was saying TSP shouldn't be a nasty place for defenders and I found TNI's influence in Balder made it a nasty place for defenders and thus hurt the regional community overall since it was only a nice place for raider-leaning neutrals and raiders.



If you don't want TSP to be a safe place for defenders to have a home without being called as ... whatever, then sure.. make us out as witches and burn us on the stakes like you're doing here. :/



But otherwise, how are we suppose to argue against the encroaching influence of an extremely unpleasant force without to some degree, saying bad things about them?

[Unibot]

Then because he makes a mistake, he suggests that TSP changes its citizenship laws to be less welcoming and closed. I say the UDL needs to change ITS policy of what its members should and shouldn't do if it doesn't want to be held accountable for its actions.

EDITED, it's pretty clear you have no intention of being honest here. I said if citizens voting aren't considered legitimate in your eyes, then there needs to be tougher restrictions for citizenship, because it's not right that we can have 'citizens' and 'citizens who legitimately can vote without being called out as 'weekend TSPers''.

In fact I'd go as far as to say you're the one who is making TSP less welcoming and closed... you call out defenders as biased people who are bringing in their own beliefs... when in fact, everyone brings in their own beliefs... and then you degrade citizens as "weekend TSPers" because they're maintaining the same level of activity as you maintained before Sedge couped you.

EDITED FOR LANGUAGE

[Rebel-topia]

I've read every word from every post on TSP forums, as my main nation is in TSP, and I've stayed out of it, as there's so much name calling and petty drama... And I see that TSP isn't the only one the drama llama visits...

I'm not defending nor condemning Uni. Like I said at the beginning, I stayed out of the debate. But I think the petty crap needs to stop. Both here and in TSP. I can't believe that so many people can't get along and debate a dern treaty (or in this case, run a regional forum) without name calling and all that petty crap... It's a disgrace for both regions.

I'd hope y'all could be civil to your fellow region-mate, but I guess I'm out of line for thinking this.



Someone let my nation <a class='bbc_url' href='http://www.nationstates.net/nation=rebel-topia_the_2'>Rebel-topia the 2</a> know when you can be civil and stop all this petty crap.

w11.zetaboards.com/Balder/topic/7704874/2/


EDIT: added link

[Todd McCloud]

Alright, a few things:1. People are definitely allowed to argue opinions, but2. The moment people feel compelled to dish out warnings is when we've stopped arguing with any sort of maturity.This whole business of half-truths, cussing, name-calling, etc here is something I personally despise. This is a game. Take it as serious as you'd like, but it isn't real-life. And frankly, if these are the arguing tactics used by anyone here, I wouldn't be surprised if they stink at arguing in real-life anyway. Passion is one thing. You can be passionate and mature. Bottom line in all of this: Hileville issued warnings, and I'll uphold those. Next person who flies off the handle is getting an official Todd warning. I don't care who it is for what reason. I don't care if it's in another thread. I don't care if you didn't read this post. You know better. Argue maturely. That's it.Minister of Justice: I think it's shocking that someone we elected to be a judge here would have such strong accusations, biases, harsh words, and coarse language. The objective and impartial demeanor a judge is supposed to have has now been stripped from the MOJ position and forces all citizens to essentially judge a case between yourself and SB. That's deplorable.As far as the whole business of UDL people coming in to vote on this, that's a very serious accusation and one that I'd like investigated. I had something similar happen in TEP for me in 2010, and consequently, I cannot simply brush this aside. Getting your friends in the region and voting is fine. Getting them in to simply vote and be done with it is another thing. Feeders are not an arm's race for influence - we are our own independent entities and not cattle to corral into makeshift pens. Balder is irrelevant in this topic; this topic is about TSP and the proposed treaty between TNI. I feel after reading this C.I. deserves an apology (in addition to TNI), and Balder should be given an apology as well. People seem to argue about how this will negatively affect TSP. People, it's these kind of arguments that negatively affect TSP.

[Unibot]

Balder is irrelevant in this topic; this topic is about TSP and the proposed treaty between TNI. I feel after reading this C.I. deserves an apology (in addition to TNI), and Balder should be given an apology as well.

No it is not. It would be silly to ignore what TNI has done to other GCRs or say that it is "off bounds" for discussion and I frankly refuse to apologize to Balder beyond my association of the actions of a large contingent in Balder to the entirety of Balder, for what it is worth.

I have not asked people to join TSP to vote on this matter, there were people in TSP that hadn't vote and were on IRC, I discussed the vote with them and they voted -- they were UDLers, yes.

I have never really had a problem with "offensive" words unless they're directed at someone. If it makes someone sound like a bad arguer, I wonder if the person making that judgement is, himself, perhaps a bad arguer for judging the quality of the argument on the decorum of words chosen instead of the argument in and of itself.

And if impartiality is a set of chains to prevent one from standing up in protest of what they believe is best for one's community and what they believe is pernicious to the pleasantries of that community than I can safely say that justice is destitute of happiness.

[Antariel]

Those barbs in Uni's last comment are directed largely at me from an IRC conversation, which descended into Uni swearing at me repeatedly for disagreeing. Not making points, just swearing.



Bels and Hax got warnings on so much less swearing than has gone on in this thread. After a general warning, it has carried on, and posts have been edited for language.



If a post has been edited for language, it patently deserves an official warning, and I ask that they be handed out. Particularly as Uni has so far done it at least twice since the general warning - he is clearly unrepentent, and I don't want to see it on our boards.



Ant.



EDIT: Oh, and its upsetting our ally , Balder, as well, based on that link. That's totally helpful.

[Charles I. Cerebella]

I apologise for going round in circles but as a minister in both TNI and Balder I find it quite ridiculous that TNI has done anything to Balder or even that TNI represents a large contingent of its members, active or otherwise. If you look at the top ten posters there myself and NES are the only two people who have ever held a position in TNI. If you look at who served in the Provisional Convention and who has since served in the Council of State again it is only myself and NES who have ever held a position in TNI as well. If TNI had any kind of preponderant influence there how come Onder got rejected by Parliament as Chief Justice on the grounds he led TNI's attack on TRR even though he is one of the finest legal minds I have ever come across? While I quite like the idea that TNI is a malevolent evil organisation that controls and influences vast swathes of NS, mainly on the grounds of amusement and that it would make my job a lot more powerful and cool than it actually is, it is quite far from the truth. If you think TSP, thanks to this treaty, is going to fall under TNI's grip then you have no where near enough faith in your fellow citizens. As Todd said, 'Feeders are not an arm's race for influence - we are our own independent entities and not cattle to corral into makeshift pens.' This treaty isn't an attempt to control or malevolently influence TSP and if it was it would not work. As I've said before it is an attempt to lay the foundations of a positive relationship between our two regions that will hopefully thrive in whatever spheres we both feel comfortable with.

[Antariel]

Considering Uni has suggested I have 'secret TNI connections', and that SB is working for DEN interests, I don't believe he *does* trust this regions members.

[A mean old man]

No it is not. It would be silly to ignore what TNI has done to other GCRs or say that it is "off bounds" for discussion and I frankly refuse to apologize to Balder beyond my association of the actions of a large contingent in Balder to the entirety of Balder, for what it is worth.

The idea that the entirety of Balder has been utterly corrupted by TNI is ridiculous.

Three people who are involved in TNI/Euro are actively involved in Balder: Rachel Anumia, C. I. Cerebella, and North East Somerset. While the time that the UDL's in-game embassy was removed because of a vote by Balder to eliminate all in-game embassies with organizations (I reference this because it was around the time you think I that you began believing that TNI had damaged Balder) was generally an uncomfortable time for the entire region, this cannot be blamed entirely on TNI's involvement there. Luxembourg, the rogue delegate who the NPO exposed, was delegate at the time and was doing a poor job, and Fotar practically had to take care of Lux's duties. The condition of the region's government probably made for a lot of tension between its members.

Not to mention you were engaged in a very personal verbal war between Rachel and NES at the time, which mainly took place on IRC but managed to seep into the region's forums often. StGeorge, currently a Lieutenant in the UDL, had to ban you from #balder and almost had to ban Rach because of what was going on between you two in that channel. So perhaps the tension in Balder can also be partially blamed on you and Rachel for dragging your ongoing, unyielding hostility into Balder's governmental functions.

I can't see any evidence of these people from TNI having dragged an agenda into Balder's politics which they are pressing upon it, apart from Rach's possibly personal agenda revolving around fighting you which seemed to have spawned after she had been involved in Balder and after you said some very tactless and personal things about her.

Highlighting Balder's community as being destroyed by TNI's influence is inappropriate. Its community consists of some TNI/Euro members and of many other members which radiated from different regions and with connections to different organizations (like the FRA and the UDL). People like StGeorge can still get along well enough over there.

I think Todd is only wrong in the sense that Balder could be relevant here, but your concerns about TNI souring the community are not because of their idiosyncratic nature. Your beef with Balder revolves around the fact that you personally don't feel comfortable there because of your personal problems with individual members who came from TNI/Euro. Have they affected the region's politics in TNI's interests? Not in any noticeable and/or concrete way. If you can argue with that coherently, please do, as it could put some weight behind what you're saying about Balder and make it relevant to this debate. From what I can see, though, you're just saying that people generally became mean to you after TNI arrived, which I think is an opinion derived from your own fights with Rachel. It has little to do with the region itself.

I have never really had a problem with "offensive" words unless they're directed at someone. If it makes someone sound like a bad arguer, I wonder if the person making that judgement is, himself, perhaps a bad arguer for judging the quality of the argument on the decorum of words chosen instead of the argument in and of itself.

Instead of aiming a snipe back at Todd, perhaps you should just stop cursing and make Hile/Todd happy.

And if impartiality is a set of chains to prevent one from standing up in protest of what they believe is best for one's community and what they believe is pernicious to the pleasantries of that community than I can safely say that justice is destitute of happiness.

This isn't about "justice." This is about diplomacy. Frankly, I think you're hindering it.

[Antariel]

Though I rarely say this. Well said. :clap:

[A mean old man]

Though I rarely say this. Well said.



:clap:

<img src='http://www.winextra.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/HellFreezesOver.jpg' alt='Posted Image' class='bbc_img' />

[Unibot]

Those barbs in Uni's last comment are directed largely at me from an IRC conversation, which descended into Uni swearing at me repeatedly for disagreeing. Not making points, just swearing.

You had been going ad nauseum at me that I was a corrupt, Machiavellian defender and every-time I tried to speak you would just use that as evidence that I was. It was frustrating. :/

So that's the last time I speak on IRC with you. You just described the part of the convo that would make me look bad and left out the rest. :/

And AMOM, If I don't personally feel welcome in Balder because of, yes, a few individuals, who will almost certainly follow into the region with any sort of friendship with TNI... why isn't that a legitimate concern? Rachel and others have proven to be completely incapable of being in the same region with me and not trying to bully me out of the region. :/

[Antariel]

I have logs of the rest if you'd like me to skim for 'nice' bits.But Uni, those aren't the grounds you opposed the treaty on; you having beef with them should have been admitted at the start, not all this 'imperialist' nonsense.EDIT: If you call your evidence 'naming regions and claiming they are TNI controlled', and sending me the Balder treaty as supposed evidence of this, yes that is what happened in the conversation

[A mean old man]

For the sake of your privacy, Uni, which you really should do a better job of preserving if you don't want to find yourself in tricky situations, I'll try to keep this as to-the-point but as tactful as possible.What is going on between you and Rach is between you and Rach. It barely has anything to do with TNI and it barely has anything to do with this debate. You were hounded out of Balder because you could not handle something which both you and Rachel are responsible for and which is almost entirely between you and Rachel (and which her friends, who happened to have been from TNI, were ultimately dragged into).It's hard to believe that this is about defenders as a whole having a rough time in Balder. After all, StGeorge is still there, and he doesn't seem particularly miserable and doesn't seem spurned by his peers. It seems to be more about about you having a rough time in Balder, and not at the hands of TNI itself as an entire organization.

[Milograd]

Though I rarely say this. Well said.



:clap:

<img src='http://i.imgur.com/1AEKo.jpg' alt='Posted Image' class='bbc_img' />

I never thought I'd live to see the day where Ant agrees with AMOM ...

[Southern Bellz]

I hope this will be my FINAL post on the subject, but have a feeling it wont. I am not delighted to make this post, but Unibot has put me in a position where I feel I must. I had a conversation with Unibot last night that I found to be one of the least favorite conversations I have ever had in NationStates. I talked to a man who honestly needs to take a step back from the game. At one point, he threatened to quit TSP if I shared parts of the story that I feel pertain to TSP security. That appeal to my emotions was unfair to me, and put me in a position where I had to choose between personally hurting Unibot (which is nothing I am interested in) and the security of this region. What I will say is that I will not talk to Unibot in private again. At one point I was concerned about his safety when he did not respond after awhile, and that?s when it clicked to me Unibot takes NS to heart and too seriously to be considered healthy. While people like me play a degree of NS seriously, I think it is due to the joy of political simulation, not due to an unhealthy obsession. As someone who care for every person behind the nation, I cant help but suggest to Unibot to take a break from the game. I cannot feel comfortable with myself without telling you that.What I am about to type, came directly from Unibot. I have sent Carta the logs (with Unibot?s permission) to verify the facts. Some of the conclusions from my facts are my own. I am not posting the logs, because some of this conversation I believe to be personal, and not helpful to the regional conversation. Plus its shitty to just post logs.This ENTIRE story starts with Balder, the UDL and TNI. As you know Balder was a GCR that was added to the game. It was an exciting event and all sorts of game-players flocked to Balder. The main people in this story include people from TNI and people from the UDL. After establishing Balder, Unibot feels TNI/Balder members created an environment that targeted UDL and made the feel uncomfortable.Unibot then told me that UDL members have been leaving regions like Balder, where they feel unwelcome, into regions like TSP where they do feel welcome. I am glad UDLers feel welcome in TSP, and I think that it speaks highly of our region that we take in EVERYONE who wants to take part in TSP, as an ally or a citizen.Unibot then tells me that he viewed TNI?s entry into TSP as a direct threat of UDL feeling ?comfortable? in the region. The problem is, he doesn?t tell the TSP assembly this, he goes directly to Mahaj and Solm (both UDL members) and tells him this concern. THEN Mahaj and Solm vote FOR.Mind you, Unibot spins an entire different story for the assembly at this point. He mentions FRA vs GCR wars, said that TNI tried to coup TSP with Sedge (when in fact it was the other way around, and worst of all he created an environment where TNI members and raiders would feel uncomfortable. It is not till I start questioning him about this that he decides to come out with the truth.I have no problems with UDL members joining TSP, but this crosses a line. There was a coordinated effort to keep information away from the TSP assembly and to misdirect the assembly on the REAL issues, while the real goal was shared with UDL members personally. He didn?t share it with the assembly because he thought it would get out to raiders and it would be leaked by ME.It is unreasonable to seek asylum in our region if you feel uncomfortable in others, then attempt to make it uncomfortable for this region?s others friends, members and allies.That really is my story, and I think it is a huge deal. I know Unibot?s actions don?t reflect on all of UDL, but Unibot?s actions dragged UDL issues, and his personal issue into TSP while he willfully attempted to cover it up until he simply couldn?t.I do not feel good posting this, Hile can attest to that, and I did not make ANY of this up, Carta can attest to that. I can?t believe this, and don?t know what actions to take to correct this. I just hope putting the truth out to the region will be a first small step and hope UDL/TSPers and nonUDL/TSPers can come up with a solution.I would also like to mention, some of the events, like how Balder went down is Unibot's view on the matter, I do not know what happened in Balder, and think Unibot isnt lying, but not admitting his fault into how Balder turned out.In solidarity with ALL TSPers,Southern Bellz, TSP Citizen

[Todd McCloud]

As far as other people coming in and joining TSP, I don't think that's a problem. TNI people can come here the same as UDL people, etc. Many people in this game have multiple citizenships anyway. My problem is if I feel people come here solely to vote on certain things in the region (like the WA vote, assembly vote, etc), and that's literally all they do. It's vote-stacking and shouldn't be a tactic used by any organization if they're trying to gain good graces in any region. That's really all there is to it. Three years ago, everyone pretty much picked their own feeder and that was it. Today it's a little different. It's fine by me, of course, but again, when you come here and accept citizenship in TSP, you basically state in writing to uphold the laws of the region and consider what's best for the region as a citizen of it, all allegiances aside. While I personally know it's difficult to keep biases out and don't really think someone should abandon all bias as that works into their personal opinions of things, they shouldn't come in here with the sole purpose of helping 'one of their own' get a vote across the floor. Yeah it's hard to prove, but it just looks bad and bottom line isn't right.

[Antariel]

As I see it, the issues are;1) Vote-stacking, which Uni has called 'lobbying'2) Misleading/false information posted by Uni about his reasons for opposing the alliance.If people are looking for a TL;DR.TSP needs to accept all nations, regardless of raider/defender. While I'm happy defenders like our region, I do not want them making it uncomfortable for raiders, which is what I think is happening. This is why our conflict of interests rule needs looking at; a Minister has responsibility, as I have been told repeatedly, not to conceal information from the region but to act in its best interests, which Uni apparently hasn't done.