Government Overhaul?

[Southern Bellz]

I was entertaining the idea of legislating a new government here.My personal idea was to make citizens the guaranteed right to vote and speak their mind, and change the legislative power to the hands of the cabinet.I feel with this change it would allow for more government activity and genuine interest being in the government. I think this would also bring much needed speed to the legislative process so this government can be a bit more proactive rather then reactive.Another thing I wanted to address is the fact I feel our RMB community and forum community are different, and I want to sort of bridge the too.Any other ideas are welcome, or criticism as well.

[Caer Rialis]

Madame DelegateCould you spell out what you mean with shifting legislative power to the cabinet and removing it from the hands of the people? I'm not sure sucha drastic step is required, nor is in the best interest of the region

[htz31361849782]

I have to agree with CR. We have always fought against that kind of governance.

[Southern Bellz]

I think it would be beneficial to the region to use a more streamlined way of legislating and getting laws passed. I feel our government system we have now is too slow. (Underlined by the fact that a simple change of a percentage, that most people have agreed on, has taken months to change).I think if the people elected the government, and then the government legislated on the people's behalf it would bring a trickle down effect on activity in this region. For one, I feel it would give our government a semblance of power, in a legal way. Maybe it is because I am misinterpreting the laws, but from what I see a lot of the ministries are nothing more than glorified janitors.The PM moderates the code, the MoFA makes press releases, Justice has not have to been active for its duties in a long time, the MotR is pretty vague, and watches endoswappers (though it can do other things by law too). So the individuals who are doing these jobs, are really dedicated in doing fairly mundane tasks for the region, and I thank everyone who is doing that. On the same hand, I think it is part of the reason why have a lack of interest in government in this region. Almost anything the cabinet does that is substantial, requires a regional vote, and I understand why people would want to cling to that, but I feel it really makes the cabinet's job a lot less fun because of the very little regional authority they get.I think with a government with a bit more genuine power, that would lead to more interest in holding the government positions due to that fact that taking the positions would mean a lot more as far as shaping the region. I think then citizens of TSP would take an interest in what their government is doing because it has an actual effect on them.If the people are upset/enthused about the government, I feel like we would start seeing genuine elections combined with the fact that there would be more interest in government.I think it is an idea worth trying, personally, but if everyone doesn't like it, so it goes.On the other hand, there is a major disconnect between the forums and the region, and I don't know how to address that, so if anyone has any ideas in the matter, I would appreciate it.

[Guest]

Being executive is, unfortunately, doing the mundane tasks. Also, it is what you make of it. You propose a new legal system now. That's good. I don't agree with your plans, but it's still good that you have plans that you are willing ot discuss.



The reason that I don't like your plans is twofold:



1. <strong class='bbc'>It is based on the wrong premises</strong>



The laws as such are not the problem of long legislative times. Under current law, it <em class='bbc'>should not</em> take months to change a simple legal issues. In the appropriate section of the current charter:

Section 6

5. A draft bill is discussed in the Assembly, the discussion being lead by the Chair of the Assembly. The discussion time may be not longer than 7 (seven) days.

and

9d. Voting will continue for 7 (seven) days.

(In between is a little time for the appropriate ministers to react, and a "chill-out time" of 3 days which was an experiment from my side back in the days)



That means, that a change in the laws should take about 2.5-3 weeks. You need people to get time to react to a law proposal, whether they are in government or not, and since not all people are on at the same time, you cannot do it in much less than 2 weeks anyway.



If something takes months, that doesn't mean the problem is in the law, but elsewhere

the MotR is pretty vague, and watches endoswappers (though it can do other things by law too).

Section 6

3. The Minister of the Region will act as Chair of the Assembly. The Chair of the Assembly is responsible for the administration of all aspects of the drafting, debate, and passage of laws.

A rather important position! Maybe this should be placed in the responsibilities section to make this more obvious as a task.



The problem as I see it as that we sometimes have to wait for a specific person to react, because they are away for some time or whatever. Absence of the MoR means legislative limbo, absence of the MoFA means no foreign affairs, absence of hte MoJ means no juridical pooha, etc.



I think a major improvement would be if the boundaries between the ministries became more fluent, such that all ministers can do pretty much all jobs, whoever happens to be around at the time.



2. <strong class='bbc'>You open up the way for dictatorship</strong>



You and the current government crew, have, no doubt, good intentions. BUt what about the next one? And the one after that? If the government gets legislative power, we have a problem: the election of the government is also ruled by law. That means, the government can change it's own powers, all legally, and there is absolutely nothing the region can do about it. It doesn't take much for a government to say, "hey, we have a novel idea, let's get rid of all these stupid elections every 3 months" and with one stroke of the pen there are no elections anymore and the region can do absolutely nothing about it.



This region has a long history of requiring assembly approval for every fart. Maybe a shift of legislation towards policy is in order, in other words, more things being put forward as executive decisions by the government and not as legislative acts. But, please, leave the legislative in hands of the people.



EDIT



Oh and because all good twofold things come in three:



3. <strong class='bbc'>It is not the passing of acts that spurs activity, but the debate</strong>

[Fudgie]

Sorry, when it boils down to it all, I don't like this proposal. I've been around too long to know how hard we fought to keep independance and a voice for all people in this region to have it taken away from me.I may have issue with change, but you're not taking away a fundamental right that I fought for the right to have.

[tsunamy]

God I feel this is going to be reminiscent of by-gone debates.While I understand the concern of giving the government too much power, I actually really like Bellz's suggestion for a few reasons.First, we need to increase activity. It's not a secret that the forums are dying and any activity we do have hear is normally confined to the "Off Topic" area.Second, back in the day (like ... what? 7 years ago now?) when laws weren't so strict things did get done quicker. The elected officials needed to forge a path ahead and the region as a whole wasn't as concerned with crossing every "t" and dotting every "i."Third, I've said this before, but I think the laws are overblown ... especially with regard to the government positions. While I appreciate the fact that laws should only take 2.5-3 weeks to get passed, the fact that we have a set time table to do jobs makes the positions cumbersome, time-consuming and overall, not fun.While I have the floor, let me address a concern that I think can be easily fixed.If we are concerned with the potential power given to the government, let me first remind everyone that while the charter is the law, it is always dependent upon the delegate. And, as delegate changes, so will the other positions. We just have to hope the citizens of TSP choose wisely.Now, I do feel this is something that would need to be legislated through the current process before it can take effect. I suggest we hold a convention again where we can draw up a revised charter again. In it, we can change the roles of government officials and dictate that the charter can only be changed by the region as a whole. This would give the government officials power and leeway to do what is needed, but also protect the rights and the governing system we currently have in place.

[Todd McCloud]

I think it would be beneficial to the region to use a more streamlined way of legislating and getting laws passed.  I feel our government system we have now is too slow.  (Underlined by the fact that a simple change of a percentage, that most people have agreed on, has taken months to change).

I'm going to have to refer to Tsrill's post on the subject... I don't think the government is to blame for the slowness of a law passing. I think it is more based on the activity within the region and getting everyone to task. But yes, that did take way too long. 2-2.5 weeks should be good enough for a change.

I think if the people elected the government, and then the government legislated on the people's behalf it would bring a trickle down effect on activity in this region.? For one, I feel it would give our government a semblance of power, in a legal way.? Maybe it is because I am misinterpreting the laws, but from what I see a lot of the ministries are nothing more than glorified janitors.

The PM moderates the code, the MoFA makes press releases, Justice has not have to been active for its duties in a long time, the MotR is pretty vague, and watches endoswappers (though it can do other things by law too).? So the individuals who are doing these jobs, are really dedicated in doing fairly mundane tasks for the region, and I thank everyone who is doing that.? On the same hand, I think it is part of the reason why have a lack of interest in government in this region.? Almost anything the cabinet does that is substantial, requires a regional vote, and I understand why people would want to cling to that, but I feel it really makes the cabinet's job a lot less fun because of the very little regional authority they get.

Well, there's a problem with that. We currently do not have a PM or a MOFA, and the MOS is pretty much AWOL at this point (lots of acronyms there, lol). We've got to get bodies into these posts. Activity is huge for regions such as ours - both in the old members and new members, and especially proactive nations and members who have ideas that stand for a good debate. Really, as far as the positions themselves are concerned, much can be done through them, but I don't want to give them too much power - that also can lead to problems. I've toyed with the idea of maybe thinking we should try a three-branched approach (legislative, executive, judicial), but again, trying to work those positions with three members isn't going to work (unless the old-folks want to hold judicial positions so they'd be a permanent fixture in the government!). We need members, and we MUST ensure the voice of the people is not compromised. I personally believe activity is a more pressing issue at this time, but I do understand your concerns - the current system could use a few tweaks. I also understand the concern of the older folks here, and we have to get them on board to any changes, or it'll create a rift and they'll be unhappy. In short, it'll fall apart. Their opinions are indeed valuable, and I believe a compromise should be enacted. We new folk respect them and make sure the house they built here, along with their voices, do not fade. But we also need them to speak up and help us. Really, this is a job not for solely us, or them, but for everyone. I think it's a possibility, most definitely.

I think with a government with a bit more genuine power, that would lead to more interest in holding the government positions due to that fact that taking the positions would mean a lot more as far as shaping the region.? I think then citizens of TSP would take an interest in what their government is doing because it has an actual effect on them.

It might work, to be honest. But the positions do hold power. Really, I think a program that helps get people re-connected with our government is a good alternative. Tsu mentioned this in his post - our laws are kind of bloated. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it makes it harder for newbs to get into our system. Perhaps it should be trimmed down? I'd say that's something we should explore.

Again, however, it boils down to activity. But we can do it.

If the people are upset/enthused about the government, I feel like we would start seeing genuine elections combined with the fact that there would be more interest in government.

Well... upset... I'd rather it be positive. Yes, it's true conflict wakes people up, but it can turn people off. I think much can be accomplished by positive changes in the region, and people spreading out to get it known these changes are happening, and we want to give you a chance to work with us. Be a part of something pretty cool. This happened to us in TEP. When we wrote our Concordat (now... I don't think we should scrap what we have and start anew, like what we did in TEP, but yeah, lol!), we were open to people helping. And help they did. Eluvatar was a major contributor to our cause. Gulliver of Taijitu helped us too. Heck, even some former empire people helped out too! Much can be gained by getting people active and waking them up. I have ideas for that, but yeah, lol.

On the other hand, there is a major disconnect between the forums and the region, and I don't know how to address that, so if anyone has any ideas in the matter, I would appreciate it.

True, and that's a justifiable concern. I think there should be more connectivity between the RMB and the region. And... WE NEED TO WIN BACK OUR RMB!! We need to keep posting there, fight the adspam that pollutes our waters and streams, get people active, and run with it. An active RMB can and does sometimes correlate into active forums. While this should not be a requirement or a part of the government, perhaps we need to establish programs and fun stuff for people to do in the region on the RMB? I have ideas, but again, I need to see what's going on first with me, lol. Still, it would be good to work on it!

[Guest]

We have already made progress in reclaiming the RMB, it was much worse...Judicial positions are always a problem, because you need the holder of that position to be around of shit happens, but hopefully that doesn't happen often; so on the other hand you don't want to put an active member on that position, because they will get frustrated from the lack of having anything to do.

[Todd McCloud]

We have already made progress in reclaiming the RMB, it was much worse...

I know, I was there for at least some of it, lol. Progress is good, but we should always be ready to get better and reach for the stars, so to speak. Reclaiming our RMB is just another one of those stepping stones to activity in our region.

Judicial positions are always a problem, because you need the holder of that position to be around of shit happens, but hopefully that doesn't happen often; so on the other hand you don't want to put an active member on that position, because they will get frustrated from the lack of having anything to do.

Well, I was the Minister of Justice for a while, and nothing really happened during my term. Unless you have a guy acting way out of line, or someone causing major problems on the forums, the justice position isn't incredibly important. I like our Minister of Justice position for an older member who doesn't log on as much or is more comfortable with not having to do a whole lot. But, I do like the idea of having more "judges". If we do get a legislative body going, the judges would be inclined to interpret the law, meaning that no law passes without their approval. This could easily be a position older members take, so they have a say in the government and nothing gets passed them unless they agree on it. If it's not agreed upon, well, it gets sent back to the legislature. To prevent potential laws from going back and forth, discussion for laws and how they should be put into place should be open to all people, so if a judge doesn't like a law, work can be done to ameliorate the problem so the judicial system passes the law.

I don't know. I am trying to think of a good way in which the older members still have a say as to what happens in the region. I think a judicial system works on that well. Legislature... that needs to be separate and consist of other members.

[&lt;&lt;Deus Ex Machina&g]

Since this topic seems to be full of controversial ideas, I might as well post some of my own. I'm not certain how much I support these against our current system.First, how about instead of voting being over a pre-determined span of time, we make it so it is either over a span of time or until we attain a certain quorum of active members? In practice, the system could work somewhat like this: On a set day each week, we start a new “sign-in” thread in the Assembly. All members active on the forums post in that thread. Every proposal made during the next week is given a minimum of three days of voting. After the minimum three days, voting continues either until seven days have elapsed or until (for example) seventy-five percent of the members who posted in the sign-in thread cast their votes.Alternatively...I do not disagree with the idea of making the legislature more exclusive; however, I'm not sure I agree with the idea of transferring legislative powers to the Cabinet. This effectively limits the legislature to five members for a three-month period under the current charter. Instead (this is effectively the same idea SB suggested with a different legislature), I might support an Assembly of the South Pacific in which all members have a voice and may propose laws, but ultimately the vote comes from a self-selecting voting membership. To be inducted into the voting membership, prospectives would state their intentions and then undergo a battery of questions followed by an approval vote from the current voting membership. (During the questioning, any member of the region would be able to pose a question that the prospective would be obligated to answer. This raises activity and lets citizens get to know each other better. It seems to incorporate elements of both meritocracy and democracy, which I think is ideal.) To prevent the emergence of an entrenched elite such as that in The West Pacific, we could reset the voting membership – perhaps or twice or thrice annually, all current voting members would lose their power, and all members of the assembly would convene to select (for example) four new voting members.I also feel that if we are to build an active and independent military, it may be more practical for the Minister of Security to be a position appointed by the Delegate. While it may seem attractive to elect a Minister of Security, doing so is inviting the possibility of foreign exploitation and foreign control of the military and intelligence divisions. The power of the people of the South Pacific would be preserved by holding a public referendum afterward to confirm the appointment of the new Minister of Security.*waits for flying fruit*