Treaty Between TNI and TSP

[A mean old man]

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Considering you've stated very adamantly that your position will never change and that you are not going to abstain out of a conflict of interest, I'm dismally awaiting some kind of righteous explosion and subsequent resignation...

[Eluvatar]

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What.

[Unibot]

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HOLY S---.

*edited at request of Hile.*

I didn't even talk to the kid about it. UGH.

I'm abstaining from this bill. People who I love very much and trust are telling me I'm not being reasonable and acting ridiculous and crazy and stuff because this treaty does nothing and so, yeah, fine, I'll be reasonable and abstain.

My thoughts are on the matter still aggressively worrying that this is a stepping stone to Balder 2.0 and frankly from the stuff I've been called in this thread, it reminds me a lot of being in Balder during its constitutional convention. :/

[A mean old man]

Thank God.

[Southern Bellz]

Unibot, when the coup happened, defenders, besides your rogue FRA crew watched, GCRs did more harm than good. It is imperative to develop relations with all of NS because security is our responsibility.You can write off my feelings as propaganda, but I am not the one who has lied over and over about TNI. I honestly don't care how the greater NS world views me, if the game condemned me for what I did during the coup, it shows their failure of judgement, not mine. My goal is simply to have TSP be a free, independent democratic region and the way this debate happened I felt it was threatened.I am glad you have chose to abstain, and I thank you for it, but it is only a start of a longer process we have to go through to make sure TSP isnt being taken advantage of by the UDL.Its very off putting to see you lie about TNI then have UDL members who dont participate here much pour in. I welcome them here, and I hope they participate, as long as they remember they are joining our community. We've worked too damn hard to have anything else.

[Southern Bellz]

Also, you are making this Balder 2.0, only this time the region being manipulated by UDL influence.

[Unibot]

Its very off putting to see you lie about TNI then have UDL members who dont participate here much pour in. I welcome them here, and I hope they participate, as long as they remember they are joining our community. We've worked too damn hard to have anything else.

Europeia played both sides, I not so sure TNI wouldn't either if they view it as in their interests.

And I never said I knew for sure, I said there was a list in the FRA forums and I couldn't remember if they were on it. I obviously don't have access to the cabinet files anymore.

Really my main reason for all of this was, when Balder was first beginning, TNI offered a Friendship pact and I found the region went downhill from there -- it basically got to the point where any thread I made.. I was called out for the same stuff I was here.. being a "defender imperialist" and stuff like that. It was a nasty place and I had to take a break from Balder. I really don't want that to happen to TSP and it sort of is happened now already albeit not with new people.

I wouldn't view this as a UDL v. TNI tension so much as a Unibot v. TNI tension.. I felt really uncomfortable on Balder's forum because all my viewpoints were immediately assumed to be a part of a greater defender conspiracy or something. I've just settled down here in TSP a bit, considered it a home and there came TNI ....

[Hileville]

I would appreciate if we don't talk about an ally that we have a treaty with that way.

[Unibot]

Also, you are making this Balder 2.0, only this time the region being manipulated by UDL influence.

SB, I just talked to people on #the_south_pacific, there's no fucking conspiracy here. Solm, Mahaj and Fisch were people on #the_south_pacific, there on it all the time, so I lobbied to them my position. I was a WA Author for years, lobbying is what I do. I don't usually back down on a vote.

This reminds me so much of Balder, every-time some tried to vote or say something and they were defender, their legitimacy was questioned. Solm, Mahaj and Fisch are citizens; they have every right to participate in the region as you do.

I'd personally suggest we tightened citizenship restrictions so that we didn't have these questions of legitimacy -- and if we're not willing to do that, then we shouldn't question the legitimacy of any of our members.

[Southern Bellz]

[quote name="unibot"] [quote name='"Southern Bellz"] Its very off putting to see you lie about TNI then have UDL members who dont participate here much pour in.  I welcome them here' date=' and I hope they participate, as long as they remember they are joining our community.  We've worked too damn hard to have anything else. [/quote']

Europeia played both sides, I not so sure TNI wouldn't either if they view it as in their interests.



And I never said I knew for sure, I said there was a list in the FRA forums and I couldn't remember if they were on it. I obviously don't have access to the cabinet files anymore.



Really my main reason for all of this was, when Balder was first beginning, TNI offered a Friendship pact and I found the region went downhill from there -- it basically got to the point where any thread I made.. I was called out for the same stuff I was here.. being a "defender imperialist" and stuff like that. It was a nasty place and I had to take a break from Balder. I really don't want that to happen to TSP and it sort of is happened now already albeit not with new people.



I wouldn't view this as a UDL v. TNI tension so much as a Unibot v. TNI tension.. I felt really uncomfortable on Balder's forum because all my viewpoints were immediately assumed to be a part of a greater defender conspiracy or something. I've just settled down here in TSP a bit, considered it a home and there came TNI .... [/quote]

Unibot, do you really think I am going to let anyone harm TSP on my watch. If TNI came in here and started saying we shouldnt have any defender treaties I would have the same problems. I was not targeting you because you were a defender, but because I thought you were bringing UDL's problem with TNI as the main issue, and that simply cant fly!



I want this to be a good place for you to post, if there is any form of harassment towards you, I will end it. But you seem to be the one with the issue of keeping civil.



I know I was harsh, but TSP becoming anyone's pawn is unacceptable, be it UDL or TNI. Now both have been good friends to us, and I expect to keep ties with both, but both need to know TSP will be free from outside influence.

[Hileville]

I'd personally suggest we tightened citizenship restrictions so that we didn't have these questions of legitimacy -- and if we're not willing to do that, then we shouldn't question the legitimacy of any of our members.

That is already being discussed in the Great Council threads.

[Unibot]

I would appreciate if we don't talk about an ally that we have a treaty with that way.

Well that's my thought on the matter, if I'm not allowed to say it, a lot of my argument is missing.

How bad is Balder? I dunno, I don't participate in it near as much as I did. Was it bad? In my opinion, it wasn't friendly anymore so I left.

It's fine, I'm abstaining, so this doesn't matter anymore.

[Unibot]

Unibot, do you really think I am going to let anyone harm TSP on my watch.

Probably not knowingly. I still thought you were being naive about TNI.

But you seem to be the one with the issue of keeping civil.

I'd probably be on my third term as AC of the FRA if I were naturally a civil person. I'm sorry if my comments got out of hand.

And I was being too harsh on you, I may have assumed you had a deal with TNI through your DEN ties, because you seemed so naive about TNI. >_>

And seeing as how my problem with Balder was the assumptions of R/D corruption, 24/7... well... my apologies.

[Southern Bellz]

I think TSP citizenship should be very open, everyone deserves a shot. I am sure if it was up to some groups, I would never have had a chance as a citizen. Everyone deserves a chance, but at the same time democracy HAS to hold people accountable for their actions and words.I do have some ideas for legislation I will introduce to address this a little bit. But it wont really center on citizenship restrictions.

[Southern Bellz]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >Unibot, do you really think I am going to let anyone harm TSP on my watch.

Probably not knowingly. I still thought you were being naive about TNI.

But you seem to be the one with the issue of keeping civil.

I'd probably be on my third term as AC of the FRA if I were naturally a civil person. I'm sorry if my comments got out of hand.

And I was being too harsh on you, I may have assumed you had a deal with TNI through your DEN ties, because you seemed so naive about TNI. >_>

And seeing as how my problem with Balder was the assumptions of R/D corruption, 24/7... well... my apologies.
</blockquote> Let me be very clear about this, The South Pacific is my HOME. It took me in as a raider, I learned from TSP and TSP learned from me. I took care never to let my raider past influence me as delegate, I treat every issue here ONLY as a TSPer.

I don't think you understand what that is like. To be met with pure welcoming and understanding, despite everything saying that they should not trust you. Not only that but to put faith in you as the leader. You go through great lengths to demonize raiders and the raider allied, you treat them with fear and anger. You will lose your moderate allies and strengthen the resolve of your enemies.

My heart and mind was captured by understanding. Only though understanding where everyone comes from will TSP be kept safe. That extends to EVERYONE.

[A mean old man]

If UDL members are going to appear here after months of inactivity and/or without participation in any other functions of TSP and, in a drone-like fashion, pile voting threads and try to tell the region that they know what is best for it when they've done diddly-squat for TSP and/or have never taken the time to understand TSP's political system and leanings, I will go totally nuclear. Even if it isn't an agenda pressed upon them by a higher-up, it is evidence of members of an organization attempting to press their foreign and irrelevant ideals on a neutral region that is far older than they are and far more complicated than they realize.Even if most of the UDL higher-ups have been reasonable here, what people like Fisch, Mahaj, Camwood, et cetera have done does not jive with me. I don't care if they're "citizens." That title is only worth whatever stands behind it. People like Fisch, who preach about GCRs being platforms for UCRs to launch off of, then appear here only to pile this vote, are abusing their privilege to be a citizen of this region. Mahaj changed his vote, and I am glad that he did this and believe that he deserves more of a break than I'm giving most of the people I'm currently referring to, but he only did this after the rest of us eviscerated him.Has TNI made any attempt whatsoever to directly influence this vote? No.EDIT: ...and don't you dare twist my words here. You know what I mean, and I have a pretty short fuse right now thanks to all this.TSP is not within the UDL's sphere of influence. Its members are free to participate in the region, but only if they can put their extraneous connections behind them when they make decisions here. The same goes for anyone else connected to any other foreign organization. If TNI tried to do this, I would go totally berserk on them, too. The feeders are not your playground. You will respect them, so help me God.I don't care who you are. Defender, raider, imperialist, whatever. If you're going to sail into the feeder regions and tell them that they should do something not because it puts their security at risk but because it is something you believe is right based on your irrelevant interactions elsewhere and because of your biases, I will do whatever I can to get rid of you. There are some people here that, despite their forum masking, don't (not yet, at least, and probably never will) have the right to call this region their "home" and then take advantage of its democratic system of government. I don't care how controversial that sounds; it's true. I, personally, am still not happy with what has happened here. Even if it seems to be resolved. I want to see this addressed within the UDL and I want to see some people back the f--- off or get with the f---ing program.

[Unibot]

Even if most of the UDL higher-ups have been reasonable here, what people like Fisch, Mahaj, Camwood, et cetera have done does not jive with me. I don't care if they're "citizens." That title is only worth whatever stands behind it. People like Fisch, who preach about GCRs being platforms for UCRs to launch off of, then appear here only to pile this vote, are abusing their privilege to be a citizen of this region. Mahaj changed his vote, and I am glad that he did this and believe that he deserves more of a break than I'm giving most of the people I'm currently referring to, but he only did this after the rest of us eviscerated him.

Mahaj is a frigg'in Election Commissioner and Fisch and Solm have been #TSP residents for quite a while (friends of Carta, I believe), I could be wrong, but I believe this is the first big vote that's even been up for Fisch and I'm sorry he had to be introduced to TSP with this...

Even if it seems to be resolved. I want to see this addressed within the UDL and I want to see some people back the f--- off or get with the f---ing program.

Well, I will talk to Camwood for one thing, since his sudden membership was wholly suspicious. He is new to gameplay and perhaps isn't experienced to know that the feeders aren't just.. well you know, everyone's swing-set.

[Antariel]

'I've found the normal ruling body of citizens have been really stubborn in these regards, so I lobbied to other citizens.'You found the people who actually care about and act on this region didn't agree with you, so went after people who don't contribute.Also, after that language warning, at least 2 people have been swearing, again. :/ It doesn't add anything to the debate.

[Charles I. Cerebella]

I feel honour bound to defend Balder here. It had a difficult beginning as any region would being born into a situation where both sides of the game are trying to be involved and work together when they have never cooperated in any sphere before. Yet after all of that it has now turned into a beacon of of successful cooperation and for those of us that have stayed and contributed it has been immensely rewarding. I currently sit in the Council of State there and have as my colleagues people I'd have never thought I would work alongside. I don't think the Pact of Friendship had anything to do with a downhill slide there, that was just a symptom of the strains of defenders and invaders working together trying to build a region from scratch for the first time ever. There were many TNI and Europeian citizens who were already involved in Balder, many of us who have stayed for the long haul and built up the region to where it is now. The Pact of Friendship was issued by myself on behalf of TNI and Rachel Anumia on behalf of Europeia because we wanted to make clear that our involvement there was not an attempt to control the region or anything like it. We promised not to try and take the delegacy, we promised our good intentions, we promised to respect Balder's laws and we promised to provide assistance in transferring the delegacy to a popularly elected one all of which we have stuck to. All of that without asking anything at all from Balder in return. We also invited other regions and organisations to accede to it which I believe some did though I can't find the thread in Balder anymore thanks to the lovely archiving people did in the early days... But yes, I firmly believe Balder to be a fine example of a neutral region that raiders and defenders have equal say and can cooperate for the benefit of the region itself rather than any other region. That isn't something to be belittled. Yes it still has its tensions and conflicts but I'm just pleased that it has been tried.

[Antariel]

To paraphrase Uni on IRC on the topic of BalderIt's raider dominated, the defenders have no influence, TNI controls it. Etc.

[Southern Bellz]

Yeah its obvious, he is mad Balder is not in a UDL spehere of influence and he feels uncomfortable there so he is trying to do that in TSP but flipped. I dont think so.

[Eluvatar]

Yeah its obvious, he is mad Balder is not in a UDL spehere of influence and he feels uncomfortable there so he is trying to do that in TSP but flipped. I dont think so.

I don't think that's fair. At all.

Unibot is passionate about what he believes in, and I think overreacted to what he saw as bad policy.

There is not and has never been any UDL effort to influence the feeders toward its interests.

And if there ever is, I will resign.

[Unibot]

Yeah its obvious, he is mad Balder is not in a UDL spehere of influence and he feels uncomfortable there so he is trying to do that in TSP but flipped. I dont think so.

SB, it's not just "not a UDL sphere of influence", The North Pacific isn't a "UDL sphere of influence" and I don't have problems with The North Pacific's neutrality. It's more the assaultive nature against defenders that I have a problem with... nothing I said was trusted, I was attacked on almost everything, there's currently a thread running where Rachel is just sound-biting shit I've said to make me look bad. :/

Basically if you're a defender in Balder, god bless you, because I certainly didn't feel welcome. Raiders and neutrals won't feel that problem, the ambassador here can attest to that.

[Southern Bellz]

[quote name="Eluvatar"] [quote name='"Southern Bellz"] Yeah its obvious' date=' he is mad Balder is not in a UDL spehere of influence and he feels uncomfortable there so he is trying to do that in TSP but flipped.  I dont think so. [/quote']

I don't think that's fair. At all.



Unibot is passionate about what he believes in, and I think overreacted to what he saw as bad policy.



There is not and has never been any UDL effort to influence the feeders toward its interests.



And if there ever is, I will resign. [/quote]

From what Unibot has said, he feels uncomfortable in Balder, and he didn't want that to happen in TSP.



So to make sure it didn't happen he used arguments with no evidence, made sweeping generalizations about TNI, saying how he feels every raider action is evil. All of that has ZERO place in this assembly which is accepting of all people. If Unibot was left unchecked, there would have been a flipped situation in balder where only defenders and the defender allied felt comfortable.



I still am 100% convinced that UDL overstepped its bounds in some fashion. I will concede it wasnt a silent coup, or an organized effort, but a significant amount of weekend TSPers like Mahaj came pouring in to support the UDL hardline. In fact, not one person from the organization has even mentioned that this might be a sight cause for concern for non-UDL members.



TSP members are more than welcome to be a TSP national and a UDL member, but that doesn't give them the right to come here and then influence TSP. Unibot admitted he had an outside personal bias with TNI, that extends a lot from his position in UDL and having constant dealing with TNI, in which he brands TNI as his enemy. He called all of their past actions with TSP, insincere, and accused all of their words of being empty just because he has conditioned himself to see them only as an enemy.



Then because he makes a mistake, he suggests that TSP changes its citizenship laws to be less welcoming and closed. I say the UDL needs to change ITS policy of what its members should and shouldn't do if it doesn't want to be held accountable for its actions.

[Southern Bellz]

[quote name="unibot"] [quote name='"Southern Bellz"] Yeah its obvious' date=' he is mad Balder is not in a UDL spehere of influence and he feels uncomfortable there so he is trying to do that in TSP but flipped.  I dont think so. [/quote']

SB, it's not just "not a UDL sphere of influence", The North Pacific isn't a "UDL sphere of influence" and I don't have problems with The North Pacific's neutrality. It's more the assaultive nature against defenders that I have a problem with... nothing I said was trusted, I was attacked on almost everything, there's currently a thread running where Rachel is just sound-biting shit I've said to make me look bad. :/



Basically if you're a defender in Balder, god bless you, because I certainly didn't feel welcome. Raiders and neutrals won't feel that problem, the ambassador here can attest to that. [/quote]

Do you not think your demonization of raiders here might make people feel just as bad as you do in Balder? Or that most people think that your attitude towards raiders is radical?