Treaty Between TNI and TSP

[Antariel]

I can believe in interests. Machiavelli did, after all.

[Unibot]

I fail to see why we should generalize that TNI attacking a GCR would mean they would attack us. TRR showed you cant lump all GCRs as one for all and all for one after Sedge's coup.

I'm not in the FRA cabinet anymore so I don't have the list, but I think I recall TNI's name on the dahm list of raiders that helped Sedge. There were a couple of raider groups that even supported both, publicly they helped TSP, but privately were supporting Sedge.

[Eluvatar]

This appears to be a pledge that if a Devonitians were to happen again, they would help us, not the couper.

[A mean old man]

It would be good to confirm or debunk that, Uni. That's a fairly weighted claim.

[Eluvatar]

If that is true, it may be relevant what TNI has said to our negotiators while negotiating this treaty.I would hope that it would be something they would make some comment on.

[Hileville]

This treaty has nothing to do with us being afraid. I have no knowledge of TNI helping Sedge in the coup and nothing was said to me during discussion with TNI on this treaty.

[Eluvatar]

If they did help Sedge and they did not mention it during negotiations, I think further correspondence may be needed to affirm that they are indeed promising not to do so again.

[Unibot]

This treaty has nothing to do with us being afraid.

Then why do you care if TNI says it won't coup the South Pacific?

[Antariel]

Isn't there a major fenda conflict of interest here?

[Hileville]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' > This treaty has nothing to do with us being afraid.

Then why do you care if TNI says it won't coup the South Pacific?
</blockquote>Every Treaty we have signed with the exception of the UDL one as it wasn't necessary had a similar clause where both regions are agreeing not to conduct military operations inside the other or assist any other region in doing so. It seems to be a pretty standard clause to me.

I would much rather include that clause if we are going to sign a treaty with someone as it wouldn't be a very good treaty if the signatories could overthrow the government of the other party.

[Southern Bellz]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' > I fail to see why we should generalize that TNI attacking a GCR would mean they would attack us.  TRR showed you cant lump all GCRs as one for all and all for one after Sedge's coup.

I'm not in the FRA cabinet anymore so I don't have the list, but I think I recall TNI's name on the dahm list of raiders that helped Sedge. There were a couple of raider groups that even supported both, publicly they helped TSP, but privately were supporting Sedge.
</blockquote> TNI and LKE offered us HELP during the coup, in fact they were much more willing to operate than the FRA. The only part of the FRA that helped was your rogue faction.

So take your lies out of here Uni. You want to talk about a culture of fear, read what you write.

[A mean old man]

I have changed my vote to an abstention.

[Antariel]

Can I ask something?Are Tikal/Solm UDL members? If so, they have a conflict of interest on this, even moreso as they barely, if ever contribute to this forum (4 posts, Solm?).Similarly Mahaj, to an extent; nothing for weeks, then a no vote...

[Eluvatar]

Can I ask something?

Are Tikal/Solm UDL members? If so, they have a conflict of interest on this, even moreso as they barely, if ever contribute to this forum (4 posts, Solm?).

Similarly Mahaj, to an extent; nothing for weeks, then a no vote...

Tikal is about as far from a UDL member as one can be. She was khan of Lone Wolves United until recently, and is still definitely raider-aligned.

AMOM was no UDL member either, and he originally voted nay.

In the meantime the very negotiator of this agreement is a UDL member and I, a UDL member, have supported it. :ele:

[Antariel]

Solm/Mahaj? I should really work out where people stand on the raider/fenda access; answering this will help

[Milograd]

Solm/Mahaj? I should really work out where people stand on the raider/fenda access; answering this will help

Solm is almost always on the TSP IRC channel.

[Southern Bellz]

Can I ask WHY Unibot made a major accusation of TNI saying they were planning to attack TSP, then when confronted about it just backed away?My inbox during the coup said the exact opposite, Unibot. You warned about a culture of fear then used fear as your main tactic to motivate your pocket UDL buds in on this. Thank goodness you have smart members of the organization that care about TSP.Its not even about the vote, I would never accuse carta of selling out TSP to the UDL, because he was able to defend his position in a nuanced, mature manner. And puts effort into TSP.My problem comes when the vote starts to sway we see, weekend TSPers and full time UDLers like Mahaj vote nah, but refuse to explain why besides they 'don't like it.' Its ridiculous, at least dignify us with a real response Mahaj, otherwise I will do everything I can to gut the influence of the UDL over this region.Your super-organization has used this region to further it's agenda too long. Unibot will always but what is best for the UDL first, and I refuse to be part of it.

[Solm]

Are Tikal/Solm UDL members? If so, they have a conflict of interest on this, even moreso as they barely, if ever contribute to this forum (4 posts, Solm?).

Yes, I'm an UDL member. I rarely post on this forum here, but I do read quite a bit of it. I haven't found a need to post here, I do a lot of things via IRC, and am on the TSP IRC almost constantly, hence me voting on this treaty in the first place. There was a huge debate about it on the IRC and I thought that I would chip in my own opinion. I fail to see how my UDL membership has anything to do with this. If there is an issue with me not posting enough on the forum, then I think that can be a valid point even though I'm on the IRC a lot. But, me being a UDL member has nothing to do with how I vote.

[Charles I. Cerebella]

My apologies for my delay in responding to this thread, essays have been dominating my time recently. For those of you who don't know me I'm one of those 'devil-tongued shit-disturbers' from TNI and happen to be the one in charge of their foreign policy and second-in-command of their military. First I'd like to request that the Chair formally warns Unibot about his language. It is highly offensive and comes from someone with no first-hand experience of what is as rich and diverse a community as any other in NS.Let me begin properly by explaining some of the reasons I proposed this treaty to Hileville. I've been TNI's ambassador here for about two years now and during that time have grown to really like this place. That is why I applied for citizenship here a few months back and though due to my university work I've not been overly active I've really enjoyed it here. I proposed the treaty because I want TNI to build up a positive relationship with regions like TSP. I don't want TNI's foreign policy to be solely based on a raider-defender basis and this is evidence of this. Furthermore this treaty is based on the one TNI already has with Lazarus, with whom TNI has had a long and constructive friendship. I would like to replicate that here.The South Pacific and TNI have a history of cooperation even without any kind of treaty relationship. Despite Unibot's accusations, TNI never helped Sedge and never even considered it. Our primary concern was to help SB, as has already been said. This treaty is not an attempt to divide the feeders or in any way try and draw TSP into the war with the FRA. There is no reference to it in the treaty, it was never mentioned in the negotiations and I have no intention of trying to enlist TSP's active support; it would be a rather stupid move given the mixed nature of our citizenry here and would not be based on a community of interests which all cooperation needs to rely on. Let me emphasize one thing in particular, TSP need not sign this out of fear. TNI will not take military action against TSP regardless of whether this treaty is signed or not. In fact even if it isn't signed you can be assured that our assistance would be forthcoming should another coup attempt be made. I'd also like to stress TNI isn't a narrowly defined 'raider' region. She never has and never will see founderless regions as just regions with a target painted on. We define ourselves as imperialists which means our military actions and dictated by foreign policy considerations. Whereas some regions and organisations will raid any founderless region, we don't. For example, when Grand Central's delegate got deleted we deployed straight away to help protect our allies and friends in the transition to their new official one, i.e. we defended it. All of that is a rather round about way of explaining that there are zero reasons why TNI would deploy hostilely against TSP. If there were any this treaty wouldn't be before us attempting to try and strengthen and broaden our ties. I feel this treaty is a positive step for both regions. There is little to lose and a lot to gain in both regions broadening the basis of our relations. The treaty doesn't tie TSP to anything more onerous than providing assistance if the direct security of TNI is threatened, a contingency unlikely to happen, or sharing intelligence over security which I'd like to think both regions would do anyway given our past cooperation. Yet the treaty lays the foundations of what can hopefully be something much wider than merely a military-intelligence relationship. By recognising formally our friendship I hope this treaty can provide the framework for our cooperation in other spheres such as in terms of culture and activity. That turned out a longer post than was originally intended so my apologies. I hope I have addressed the concerns of the people unsure of the merits of this treaty and if I hadn't I am happy to talk through it further either here or by PM or however. ^_^

[Hileville]

Thanks C. I., your comments are appreciated.

[Antariel]

Well said.

[Milograd]

Thank you for the appearance, C.I.

[Hileville]

<strong class='bbc'>WARNING:</strong>



Let's keep this discussion as civil as possible please.  Watch the language and remember this is a game and although at times debate may be fierce we need to keep the atmosphere as friendly as possible in our Assembly.



Thank You

[Eluvatar]

Thanks Hileville :wub:

[Unibot]

It is highly offensive and comes from someone with no first-hand experience of what is as rich and diverse a community as any other in NS.

Rich and diverse, you banned someone from your region because they tried to defend their own region. How'll about "maniacally imposing its psychotic beliefs on people without limitation or tolerance for difference"? Rich and diverse, what a farce.