Rebuilding the Region

[Hileville]

 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Hileville" data-cid="99481" data-time="1368543523"><div> 
The enabling legislation Bel is drafting so we can have a special election. 

 
Oh... Gotcha! But since he told me any new legislation would have to be an amendment to the CoL, why is he drafting something? A clause or two should do it...
 
</div></blockquote> 
Nope.  It is going to be done similar to how we did the Transition bill.  Set an expiry date on it and such to where it isn't a permanent law.

[Drugged Monkeys]

Communication to the region is key. Most of the ideas I have seen in this thread are exactly what we need. Pulling together as a group to get these implemented would be a great thing.
 
NS by itself is a boring thing after so long, but since I have added in the forum side/government area of it all I have really began to enjoy it. We need to continue to get a feel for what people are looking for and provide that for them here on the forum. Continuous feedback and improvement is what we need to strive for as a region, taking the input from the people in TSP and providing actual feedback.
We need more active people to push these things. We can't all be super active all the time, but if we get enough people active then we won't need to worry about one person covering too much at once. With enough people we can split tasks up evenly to provide the best feedback and improvement possible.

[Awesomiasa]

Communication to the region is key. Most of the ideas I have seen in this thread are exactly what we need. Pulling together as a group to get these implemented would be a great thing.
 
NS by itself is a boring thing after so long, but since I have added in the forum side/government area of it all I have really began to enjoy it. We need to continue to get a feel for what people are looking for and provide that for them here on the forum. Continuous feedback and improvement is what we need to strive for as a region, taking the input from the people in TSP and providing actual feedback.
We need more active people to push these things. We can't all be super active all the time, but if we get enough people active then we won't need to worry about one person covering too much at once. With enough people we can split tasks up evenly to provide the best feedback and improvement possible.

I very much agree. Shall I start a permanent suggestions thread somewhere?

[God-Emperor]

I think there's one somewhere already.

[Letoilenoir]

Discussion HallDiscussion in regards to making TSP an even better place to be is carried out in these halls.Open to all nations, and the main legislative area of TSP; for posting ideas, draft legislation, debate, etc. 
However, you have to be a citizen to participate (to start a topic or to respond to a post)
 
For the sake of transparency and democracy this sub forum should be open to forum MEMBERS not just citizens

[Penguin]

Discussion Hall
<div style="margin:0px;font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(191,194,186);">Discussion in regards to making TSP an even better place to be is carried out in these halls.Open to all nations, and the main legislative area of TSP; for posting ideas, draft legislation, debate, etc. 
However, you have to be a citizen to participate (to start a topic or to respond to a post)
 
For the sake of transparency and democracy this sub forum should be open to forum MEMBERS not just citizens
 
</div>

Why do you think that?

[Hileville]

The description on that forum is actually outdated as it was carried over from the Great Council when Bel changed the layout of the Assembly.  That is the main discussion area for Citizens and is no longer open to all nations as we are not in a Great Council.

[Letoilenoir]

Right, so just to clarify, to even join the discussion Citizenship has to be conferred on the participants? 

[mcmasterdonia]

Why would it matter what non-citizens think?
 
If you have a nation in the region you can apply for citizenship in order to participate.

[Letoilenoir]

Why would it matter what non-citizens think?
 
If you have a nation in the region you can apply for citizenship in order to participate.

 

Why would it matter what non-citizens think?
 
If you have a nation in the region you can apply for citizenship in order to participate.

Are you a citizen of Australia?
Did you have to apply for citizenship?
Were you born in Australia?
 
If it is the assertion of The Coalition that all arrivals in TSP have to apply for citizenship before participating in the democratic process, then maybe it is time for Feeder status to be withdrawn from the region
 
After all if you are born (or spawned) in the region surely it is your birthright to be granted citizenship 

[Kris Kringle]

Why would it matter what non-citizens think?If you have a nation in the region you can apply for citizenship in order to participate.

Independently from whether I believe non citizens should be able to speak in the forums, what you said is possibly the most shameful thing I have ever read from a TSP nation.It would matter because free speech was not designed just for a few privileged, no matter how easy the process to acquire that privilege were. It was designed so that even the less powerful could have a say and others knew that that one person had the right to speak. We care because we are a democracy and forum or not there are other nations that are in our region in NS that deserve the same rights of speech are citizens.You could argue the feasibility of adding speech rights to non citizens in the forum as an administrative matter but I find preposterous to even question whether we should care.

[tsunamy]

 
Are you a citizen of Australia?
Did you have to apply for citizenship?
Were you born in Australia?
 
If it is the assertion of The Coalition that all arrivals in TSP have to apply for citizenship before participating in the democratic process, then maybe it is time for Feeder status to be withdrawn from the region
 
After all if you are born (or spawned) in the region surely it is your birthright to be granted citizenship 
 

 
This is a ridiculous argument. Not to be U.S.-centric, but here, at least, you can't just show up at the polls and vote. You need to apply for the voting process. You may need to show that you are a valid citizen.
 
It *is* your right, but you have to choose to exercise it.
 
Likewise, Kris, I think your argument is a little off base. Any individual has the right to scream on a street corner -- that's freedom of speech. However, if you want to be taken seriously, you need to follow specific channels and/or procedures. Asking nations to do that isn't making a second class of citizen.

[Letoilenoir]

 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Letoilenoir" data-cid="100606" data-time="1369581689"><div> 
Are you a citizen of Australia?
Did you have to apply for citizenship?
Were you born in Australia?
 
If it is the assertion of The Coalition that all arrivals in TSP have to apply for citizenship before participating in the democratic process, then maybe it is time for Feeder status to be withdrawn from the region
 
After all if you are born (or spawned) in the region surely it is your birthright to be granted citizenship 
 

 
This is a ridiculous argument. Not to be U.S.-centric, but here, at least, you can't just show up at the polls and vote. You need to apply for the voting process. You may need to show that you are a valid citizen.
 
It *is* your right, but you have to choose to exercise it.
 
Likewise, Kris, I think your argument is a little off base. Any individual has the right to scream on a street corner -- that's freedom of speech. However, if you want to be taken seriously, you need to follow specific channels and/or procedures. Asking nations to do that isn't making a second class of citizen.
 
</div></blockquote> 
But there is an inherent contradiction that the coalition has adopted
 
Let me ask you, do you pledge allegiance to The President (the office)or to the President(the individual)?
 
At the moment the way the Charter is worded The Coalition is asking any would be participants to do the latter
 
The further I get into this discussion with this Institution that claims to be the representative government of  The South Pacific the more apparent it becomes that it has no concept of what representation means 
 
Universal suffrage in TSP should not be dependant on whether you swear an oath to the existing Government, but wheter you swear loyalty to the Region itself
 
If The Coalition cannot handle the fact that there are other points of view as to what those best interests are then it should at least be honest about it like the NPO and state this publicaly, dropping this pretence of democracy

[Kris Kringle]

 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Letoilenoir" data-cid="100606" data-time="1369581689"><div> 
Are you a citizen of Australia?
Did you have to apply for citizenship?
Were you born in Australia?
 
If it is the assertion of The Coalition that all arrivals in TSP have to apply for citizenship before participating in the democratic process, then maybe it is time for Feeder status to be withdrawn from the region
 
After all if you are born (or spawned) in the region surely it is your birthright to be granted citizenship 
 

 
This is a ridiculous argument. Not to be U.S.-centric, but here, at least, you can't just show up at the polls and vote. You need to apply for the voting process. You may need to show that you are a valid citizen.
 
It *is* your right, but you have to choose to exercise it.
 
Likewise, Kris, I think your argument is a little off base. Any individual has the right to scream on a street corner -- that's freedom of speech. However, if you want to be taken seriously, you need to follow specific channels and/or procedures. Asking nations to do that isn't making a second class of citizen.
 
</div></blockquote> 
[font="'lucida sans unicode', 'lucida grande', sans-serif;"]I agree that to be taken seriously you need to follow proper channels. There is no arguing there. My concern is with someone saying "[/font]Why would it matter what non-citizens think?[font="'lucida sans unicode', 'lucida grande', sans-serif;"]". Being a citizen is a requirement to full participation, but it is by no means a requirement to have your voice heard, not necessarily for government matters but at least in matters of general interest. It is negative for a democracy to think that only citizens are worth listening; sure we need to focus on addressing their concerns before those of others but the concerns of the latter ones are just as valid and worth listening to. Furthermore, if we only listen to citizens then we are not doing a good job making the Coalition a government friendly to others. There are more than 3000 nations in the region but only a handful are citizens. Shouldn't we try to know what the others have to say? Several don't want to participate, but perhaps there are others who do and may have been felt rejected by statements like the one I am protesting.[/font]

[QuietDad]

Why would it matter what non-citizens think?
 
If you have a nation in the region you can apply for citizenship in order to participate.

The South Pacific currently has [font="Verdana, Tahoma;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);"] 4,597 nations while this forum has 100 citizens. Imagine if the 4497 "non citizens" got to actually speak about things on their mind and participate, eventually getting to the point the become active citizens.[/font]

[Penguin]

While i understand what both sides are saying i think that, if you WANT your voice heard, you have to make the EFFORT to do so. if you are taking time to put your voice on a platform, why not take the 2 minuets it takes to fill out the citizen form and become one? ok so you don't want to be part of the government? you dont want to be in the forums? they WHAT DO you want? 
 
i agree that maybe we could possibly set up an area so that non-citizens could be heard. but what do they expect to happen if they dont want to participate? <-- THAT is the question that I'm wondering.

[tsunamy]

 
But there is an inherent contradiction that the coalition has adopted 
Let me ask you, do you pledge allegiance to The President (the office)or to the President(the individual)?
 
At the moment the way the Charter is worded The Coalition is asking any would be participants to do the latter
 
The further I get into this discussion with this Institution that claims to be the representative government of  The South Pacific the more apparent it becomes that it has no concept of what representation means 
 
Universal suffrage in TSP should not be dependant on whether you swear an oath to the existing Government, but wheter you swear loyalty to the Region itself
 
If The Coalition cannot handle the fact that there are other points of view as to what those best interests are then it should at least be honest about it like the NPO and state this publicaly, dropping this pretence of democracy
 

 
Let me ask you this: Where does the U.S. Constitution end and the government it forms begin?
 
Further, you're arguing with individuals. No one here speaks for the Institution as you're asserting.

[mcmasterdonia]

I didn't mean to cause so much offence. I do recognize that we have a lot of nations in the region, if they wish to participate they should be able to, and thankfully in The Coalition of TSP they are able to.
 
I do not know if Letoilenoir has a nation here. Do you Kris Kringle? Or are you too busy determining what is shameful to actually be a bit observant.
 
The nation he has listed is in the Blood Cave. An important part of applying for citizenship in the first place, is so that we know that you actually maintain a nation in the South Pacific in-game, and are actually participating in it. I care little what Letoilenoir has to say because he seems to be little more than a sycophant of Milograds come here to stir up shit and cause trouble, similar to what he does on a daily basis on the NS forums.
 
Assuming you have a nation in TSP and are acting with good intentions, of course you should have your voice heard. It's when you don't and have simply arrived to continue to encourage disunity and strife after a failed regime that I think your voice does not count.

[Kris Kringle]

I didn't mean to cause so much offence. I do recognize that we have a lot of nations in the region, if they wish to participate they should be able to, and thankfully in The Coalition of TSP they are able to.I do not know if Letoilenoir has a nation here. Do you Kris Kringle? Or are you too busy determining what is shameful to actually be a bit observant.The nation he has listed is in the Blood Cave. An important part of applying for citizenship in the first place, is so that we know that you actually maintain a nation in the South Pacific in-game, and are actually participating in it. I care little what Letoilenoir has to say because he seems to be little more than a sycophant of Milograds come here to stir up shit and cause trouble, similar to what he does on a daily basis on the NS forums.Assuming you have a nation in TSP and are acting with good intentions, of course you should have your voice heard. It's when you don't and have simply arrived to continue to encourage disunity and strife after a failed regime that I think your voice does not count.

You will understand that simply asking who caring what non citizens think is a dangerous principle without further specification for our democratic order in the region.I do agree with the statement of your response's last paragraph in that there are certain requirements to participate in the forum and further to be taken seriously, but I don't believe it is right to just say that we shouldn't care about other nations speaking.

[Alv]

While i understand what both sides are saying i think that, if you WANT your voice heard, you have to make the EFFORT to do so. if you are taking time to put your voice on a platform, why not take the 2 minuets it takes to fill out the citizen form and become one? ok so you don't want to be part of the government? you dont want to be in the forums? they WHAT DO you want? 
 
i agree that maybe we could possibly set up an area so that non-citizens could be heard. but what do they expect to happen if they dont want to participate? <-- THAT is the question that I'm wondering.

Well there is a difference between wanting to participate and wanting to be a citizen, because as a citizen you have to follow laws and guidelines you may or may not agree with, Its not so much that they don't care enough to get citizenship (If  they didn't want to because it'd take effort then Letoilenoir wouldn't be arguing for his case.) However, i do believe that citizenship is a important aspect of our government as without citizenship new members could come on and influence voting procedures and elections greatly, i also feel that members should have more rights in viewing the forum and expressing opinions but certain spots of our forum (I.E NSA areas and certain Assembly areas should be private to citizens for obvious reasons.

[Brutland and Norden]

I do not know if Letoilenoir has a nation here. Do you Kris Kringle? Or are you too busy determining what is shameful to actually be a bit observant.
 
The nation he has listed is in the Blood Cave. An important part of applying for citizenship in the first place, is so that we know that you actually maintain a nation in the South Pacific in-game, and are actually participating in it. I care little what Letoilenoir has to say because he seems to be little more than a sycophant of Milograds come here to stir up shit and cause trouble, similar to what he does on a daily basis on the NS forums.
 
Assuming you have a nation in TSP and are acting with good intentions, of course you should have your voice heard. It's when you don't and have simply arrived to continue to encourage disunity and strife after a failed regime that I think your voice does not count.

Letoilenoir is Distortilla.
 
Kris Kringle is Kringalia, the first nation Milograd ejected from TSP on assuming the Delegacy. S/He* had been a vocal defender and supporter of TSP during the coup.
 
* Kris, I am still unsure of your erm... gender.
 
Weighing in on the issue, while I do agree that non-citizens should be free from being ejected needlessly, and should be free to express their thoughts just like everyone else. The freedom to speak and openness are one of the best attributes that I found in TSP and we shouldn't let the coup, its instigator, or his supporters incite us to move away from the fundamental things that has given TSP its character.
 
Nevertheless, I do agree with some issues Alv raised <a class='bbc_url' href='http://forums.thesouthpacific.org/topic/4731-rebuilding-the-region/?p=100664'>here</a> and tsunamy said <a class='bbc_url' href='http://forums.thesouthpacific.org/topic/4731-rebuilding-the-region/?p=100615'>here</a>. There are some things that has to be rightfully kept to TSPers, like the right to vote for our own leaders and our own laws. We cannot let outside influences pile on TSP and sway the votes towards them. Believe me, many people from other regions make a sport out of that.

[Hileville]

ADMIN NOTE:
 
Steps have been taken to allow for non-citizens to post their opinions on Assembly Discussions.  The Assembly area has been re-shuffled and a special forum in which all members of the board are able to post in has been created/converted.  
 
<a class='bbc_url' href='http://forums.thesouthpacific.org/forum/305-resident-discussion-hall/'>http://forums.thesouthpacific.org/forum/305-resident-discussion-hall/</a> < All members of the forum may post in that area their ideas and thoughts on Assembly discussions.
 
Now if you wish to post in Assembly discussions directly you will still need to acquire citizenship.

[Kris Kringle]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mcmasterdonia" data-cid="100659" data-time="1369626559">


I do not know if Letoilenoir has a nation here. Do you Kris Kringle? Or are you too busy determining what is shameful to actually be a bit observant.

The nation he has listed is in the Blood Cave. An important part of applying for citizenship in the first place, is so that we know that you actually maintain a nation in the South Pacific in-game, and are actually participating in it. I care little what Letoilenoir has to say because he seems to be little more than a sycophant of Milograds come here to stir up shit and cause trouble, similar to what he does on a daily basis on the NS forums.

Assuming you have a nation in TSP and are acting with good intentions, of course you should have your voice heard. It's when you don't and have simply arrived to continue to encourage disunity and strife after a failed regime that I think your voice does not count.

Letoilenoir is Distortilla.

Kris Kringle is Kringalia, the first nation Milograd ejected from TSP on assuming the Delegacy. S/He* had been a vocal defender and supporter of TSP during the coup.

* Kris, I am still unsure of your erm... gender.

Weighing in on the issue, while I do agree that non-citizens should be free from being ejected needlessly, and should be free to express their thoughts just like everyone else. The freedom to speak and openness are one of the best attributes that I found in TSP and we shouldn't let the coup, its instigator, or his supporters incite us to move away from the fundamental things that has given TSP its character.

Nevertheless, I do agree with some issues Alv raised <a class='bbc_url' href='http://forums.thesouthpacific.org/topic/4731-rebuilding-the-region/?p=100664'>here</a> and tsunamy said <a class='bbc_url' href='http://forums.thesouthpacific.org/topic/4731-rebuilding-the-region/?p=100615'>here</a>. There are some things that has to be rightfully kept to TSPers, like the right to vote for our own leaders and our own laws. We cannot let outside influences pile on TSP and sway the votes towards them. Believe me, many people from other regions make a sport out of that.</blockquote>Male, B&N, and thank you very much for the introduction.

That is precisely what I am advocating: certain rights like voting are by all means exclusive to citizens, but let's not pretend like we shouldn't care what others have to say, because they have opinions too and some might even be interesting to hear.

[Letoilenoir]

With the introduction of the Residents Hall this issue has been somewhat alleviated, and is a step towards broadening the involvement of TSP nations in the forum
 
As stated elsewhere, if my critique has been taken to be a personal attack on anyone please be assured that was not my intention, and apologise if it has been construed as such