TWP

[Antariel]

I've opened discussion with TWP; informal for now, but it's a start.
 
 
 
 
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:15px;color:rgb(0,136,0);"]<AGP>: [/font]hey there
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:15px;color:rgb(34,68,34);"]<Antariel>: [/font]Howdy +++ [color=rgb(102,136,102);font-weight:normal;]AGP[/color] has given voice to [color=rgb(68,170,68);font-weight:bold;]Antariel[/color] [font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:15px;color:rgb(0,136,0);"]<AGP>: [/font]And congrats [font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:15px;color:rgb(34,68,34);"]<Antariel>: [/font]Thanks <img src='http://widget00.mibbit.com/smileys/modern/icon_smile.gif' alt='Posted Image' class='bbc_img' /> [font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:15px;color:rgb(34,68,34);"]<Antariel>: [/font]Can't help but notice you have a certain region member of ours in your region <img src='http://widget00.mibbit.com/smileys/modern/icon_razz.gif' alt='Posted Image' class='bbc_img' /> [font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:15px;color:rgb(0,136,0);"]<AGP>: [/font]ha, lol [font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:15px;color:rgb(0,136,0);"]<AGP>: [/font]He's free to come and go where he chooses, IMO As long as he doesn't threaten the region. [font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:15px;color:rgb(34,68,34);"]<Antariel>: [/font]Has he asked for shelter or anything? <img src='http://widget00.mibbit.com/smileys/modern/icon_razz.gif' alt='Posted Image' class='bbc_img' /> [font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:15px;color:rgb(0,136,0);"]<AGP>: [/font]nope [font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:15px;color:rgb(34,68,34);"]<Antariel>: [/font]I see. [font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:15px;color:rgb(34,68,34);"]<Antariel>: [/font]What would you do if he threatened *our* region again?   [font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:15px;color:rgb(0,136,0);"]<AGP>: [/font]The answer is indeterminate because it would depend upon the situation. I don't mean that to avoid the question. TWP always supports the sitting delegate, and that is B&N. [font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:15px;color:rgb(34,68,34);"]<Antariel>: [/font]Right [font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:15px;color:rgb(0,136,0);"]<AGP>: [/font]I had all the TWP Guardians and government except for two wanting to support Milo. Had I taken either side, I'd have a new conflict in TWP. [font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:15px;color:rgb(34,68,34);"]<Antariel>: [/font]I'll probably have to come back at some point with some more formal questions <img src='http://widget00.mibbit.com/smileys/modern/icon_razz.gif' alt='Posted Image' class='bbc_img' /> But thanks for the chat  

[Eluvatar]

I don't think AGP is being entirely straight with you. AGP is Westwind and fervently supported Milograd. He went as far as to demand the impeachment of Equilism's govt for disagreeing with him (simplification!). I hope it goes without saying that that detail shouldn't be publicly discussed as it is embarrassing to our friends in Equilism.

[Belschaft]

Having been over the thread in question in Eq, it is very clear that Westwind is at the very least misrepresenting himself. It would be good to find out who the two who opposed supporting Milo were.
 
Also, the fact that all but two TWP government people wanted to support Milo is, in my book, the problem.

[Topid]

Punk D said that he personally opposed Milograd. Perhaps he was one of the guardians to oppose.

[Southern Bellz]

I feel like TWP as a region was fine.
 
IMO
 
I think a statement saying due to Punk supporting us he will be unbanned, but the coalition will ban TAO and Dark both who supported Milo.

[Drugged Monkeys]

Yea, Punk claims WW was "nuetral" and the rest of TWP was publicly Pro-Milo.
 
HA!

[Hileville]

WW certainly wasn't neutral.  The Eq thread proves that.

[Drugged Monkeys]

Clearly. TWP is beyond any discussion. End all relations, if they want any future relations it is on them now. We unbanned PunkD due to his support of us, so now they have no cards left to play in that aspect.

[Drugged Monkeys]

PunkD said "Rolheath didn't really take a position, nor did Yy4u"

[Hileville]

TAO can probably be ejected.  He is just here to cause issues.  With his ejection a statement on the closure of embassies would be awesome.

[Belschaft]

I agree that the presence of TAO has been tolerated for long enough. Of course, if he is banned a puppet of his/one of Milo's remaining fans will post something along the lines of 'Look, suppressing those who speak against them; so democratic!'. An explanation of why TAO is banned (agent of a foreign, hostile government disseminating misinformation and propaganda) has to be timed with it.
 
Ideally I think we'd want to pair a negative move away from TWP (closing embassies, labeling them as hostile) with a positive move towards someone else (The Stately Quadrile). I'd suggest opening treaty talks (and then leaking that fact) with either TEP or, perversely, TRR.
 
The irony of me suggesting we enter treaty talks with TRR is real, I am aware, but considering the current realities it makes some sense;
 
TRR is hostile to TP and Gatesville
We are hostile to TP and Gatesville
TRR provided assistance during the Milograd coup
 
The only issue with that would be TNI's (unrecognized) war on the FRA. If we did go that root we would probably have to discuss the issue with them.

[Eluvatar]

TNI would not like us entering into a treaty of alliance with TRR, no, but is that really in the cards?

[Belschaft]

I have no idea. I'm simply suggesting possible moves in the stately quadrille. I'd suggest that it's possible post Milograd coup, due to improved TRR/TSP relations (Time it took Fratt to pledge support = 10 seconds) stemming from their assistance, and worsened TSP relations with states TRR are hostile with.
 
I'd favor treaty talks with TEP over TRR however, due to the old 'be a three in a world of five' adage, and the greater shared history. Todd will know whether or not they would be amiable to the idea.
 
With general moves away from TWP, GV and TP however it is essential that we make some kind of positive move to compensate. Personally I view TEP, TRR, LKE, Equilism and UDL as being potential avenues.
 
TEP
Positives: Shared feeder identity, commonality of values, historical close relations
Negatives: None
 
TRR
Positives: Shared GCR identity, commonality of foes, major assistance during coup
Negatives: Historical strained relations, TNI conflict
 
LKE
Positives: Allied with TNI half of UIAF, capable army
Negatives: Discordant values, no historical relations of note
 
Equilism
Positives: Shared allies (TNP and Osiris), closeness of shared allies, SovCon member, common values, major assistance during coup, historical relations
Negatives: Westwind
 
UDL
Positives: Massive army, major help during coup
Negatives: Historical and present bad relations, terrible PR at their end
 
 
A positive step could range from reestablishing diplomatic relations with UDL, amending the TNI documents to include both UIAF members, to new treaty talks with TEP/TRR/Equilism.

[Drugged Monkeys]

I think we need to consider some of these for a lot longer than "They helped during the coup".
 
The relation with UDL have been mega screwed up as of late, although I do appreciate their extensive help during the coup, rushing back into any sort of treaty talk would be a set up for failure. Diplomatic talks are the best thing for now, we can slowly reestablish and feel out where things will go in long term

[Belschaft]

Note that for UDL I suggested reestablishing diplomatic relations, not starting treaty talks.

[Eluvatar]

I won't comment on the UDL.Regarding the East Pacific-- might it be best to approach them jointly with the rest of the Triple Alliance (TNP & Osi)?

[Southern Bellz]

Twp Declared War Last Coup. And Had Guardians Endorse Milo This Time, They Made Their Choice.

[Antariel]

TWP can go hang, imho. No treaties with the UDL at present. Will look into LKE, TRR, TEP, Eq.

[Hileville]

LKE doesn't do foreign affairs.  TNI does that for them.  Since we are treatied with TNI the defense clauses tie us to the UIAF as a whole now that they have combined.  This is what I was told by CI Cerebella.

[Belschaft]

In that case, I would prefer the treaty to be updated to reflect that. That's bureaucratic, and can wait till we have time to spare.
 
I propose we approach Equilism to discuss a treaty.
 
Regarding TEP/The Triple Alliance, that's an interesting one. That came into being by three separate bi-lateral treaties negotiated with out intent to form it. I'm not sure how a coordinated approach to TEP would work?

[Eluvatar]

Perhaps we should get our own Triple house in order? There have been plans, on hold, to establish a treaty org for a while now..

[Belschaft]

I'm less inclined to the Concord treaty than I was previously. The Triple Alliance is working rather well as it is, and I'm not sure we need to tinker with it.

[Brutland and Norden]

I would support a move towards TEP. It seems the obvious choice. The others, I don't really have a strong opinion. I do have an inclination to move TSP closer to TRR if not for some, er... considerations. TRR had been more considerate and supportive of us, than, let's say, TP.
 
So I already did what I wanted to do - bury TWP, TP, and GV down the embassy list.

[Antariel]

Stop messing about in my sub-forums
 
Want me to set some talks up with Fratt?

[Antariel]

(I'll try to find out which Guardians were pro us)