Review of Extant Treaties

[Belschaft]

Having looked over our extant treaties I would like to propose the repeal of two of them;

<a class='bbc_url' href='http://forums.thesouthpacific.org/topic/50-lwu-tsp-treaty/'>TSP-LWU</a>
My reasons here are fairly simple. LWU is a defunct organisation, and as such the treaty is already by extension defunct; this is a simple matter of record keeping.

<a class='bbc_url' href='http://forums.thesouthpacific.org/topic/51-tsp-tni-treaty/'>TSP-TNI</a>
With TNI matters are slightly more complicated. Firstly, I do not personally support an alliance between ourselves and an imperialist region; I do not believe that such an arrangement is in keeping with our ideals and principles, most notably democracy and regional sovereignty.
 
Secondly, following the partial merger of TNI and LKE with the creation of the UIAF (United Imperial Armed Forces), their new joint military, we have been tied by extension to another region. As such I believe we should revoke the current treaty, regardless of peoples opinions regarding TNI, and should the Assembly disagree with my first point seek a new arrangement with the UIAF as a whole.

[God-Emperor]

I second.

[Hileville]

I support the repeal of the LWU but do not support the repeal of the TNI treaty.
 
TNI has been a good ally to us.  If we want to explore a new treaty I would prefer we negotiate that before repealing the old one.

[God-Emperor]

If the UIAF would be open to negotiatin' a treaty with 'em, I'd prefer to do that.

[Rebel-topia]

I gree with Hile & GE... I think that we should approach the UIAF BEFORE we repeal the current treaty

[Hileville]

As per Cere the current treaty is still very much in force and it now includes the UIAF.

[God-Emperor]

I'd still prefer to repeal the LWU treaty.

[Southern Bellz]

I will also add that LWU ignored my call for aid in the Milo coup.

[Sandaoguo]

I would like to bring this back. LWU is a defunct organization. There's no reason why we still have the treaty on the books. I motion to repeal it.

[Hileville]

I will second a repeal of the LWU treaty.

[Arbiter08]

I third this motion

[Escade]

I told several people this already but a member of LWU contacted me during the SoE and offered assistance if I was ever couped.  

 

Would it make sense to inform them that we are going to repeal the treaty, as a courtesy?

[Unibot]

Sure. I'm still up for the repeal.

[Vibrant Coconuts]

So long as the basis of the repeal is that "Lone Wolves United" is an utterly ridiculous and nonsensical name, I'm game!

 

Sandaoguo, do you plan to revisit the other treaty, with TNI?

[Sandaoguo]

Sandaoguo, do you plan to revisit the other treaty, with TNI?

 

Revisiting the TNI treaty isn't in the stars.

[Vibrant Coconuts]

Ok.

[Unibot]

As for the TNI-TSP treaty,

 

 

With TNI matters are slightly more complicated. Firstly, I do not personally support an alliance between ourselves and an imperialist region; I do not believe that such an arrangement is in keeping with our ideals and principles, most notably democracy and regional sovereignty.
 
Secondly, following the partial merger of TNI and LKE with the creation of the UIAF (United Imperial Armed Forces), their new joint military, we have been tied by extension to another region. As such I believe we should revoke the current treaty, regardless of peoples opinions regarding TNI, and should the Assembly disagree with my first point seek a new arrangement with the UIAF as a whole.

 

<div>I agree with both of the reasons provided by Belschaft.
 
I also think there's a third reason to consider dropping the TNI-TSP treaty. TRR has expressed reluctance to pursue further relations with TSP because of its alliance with TNI -- I think their complaints are completely valid: our ally invaded them and threatens to do so again in the future.
 
TRR has been shaping up to potentially be a great ally for TSP under Frattastan's tenure -- they otherwise have expressed interest in pursuing a relationship with us. I think we need to think about whether involving ourselves with TNI's diplomatic baggage (the war efforts against FRA and UDL) is really worth it.
</div>

[Hileville]

Here is an idea lets just repeal all of our treaties with raider/imperialist groups and join the FRA.

[Cormac]

I'm fine with the LWU repeal.

 

I think repealing the TNI treaty for the sake of relations with TRR is misguided. If we have to repeal a current treaty in order to have deeper relations with another region, that's already a problem -- the fact we have a treaty that stands as an impediment to relations with TRR in the first place indicates differences between our regions that may prove challenging in other ways, namely that we are an independent region and TRR is a defender region. Secondly, let's not forget that until very recently The South Pacific put quite a bit of distance between itself and The Rejected Realms on purpose due to the Devonitions coup. It seems premature to launch ourselves head first into deeper relations with a region TSP previously viewed skeptically, if not with contempt, while simultaneously repealing a treaty with an ally that has already provided TSP substantive benefit during Milograd's coup.

 

Which brings me to my final point: From a purely practical standpoint, can someone who was more closely involved in the command aspects of the April coup give us some idea of how much support the RRA provided versus how much support was provided by TNI and, by extension, the entire UIAF? These are security alliances, after all, and we need to know how the kind of move Unibot proposes would actually impact our security.

[StGeorgie]

Repealing the TNI treaty due to 'baggage' involved in their war with the FRA in favour of TRR is... well it's amusing, considering TRR's membership in that organisation.

[Escade]

 

Which brings me to my final point: From a purely practical standpoint, can someone who was more closely involved in the command aspects of the April coup give us some idea of how much support the RRA provided versus how much support was provided by TNI and, by extension, the entire UIAF? These are security alliances, after all, and we need to know how the kind of move Unibot proposes would actually impact our security.

 

 

I'm very interested in this as well. I did ask a few people about this and didn't really get a clear sense. If anyone can discuss with me more either publicly or privately that would be great. 

 

Finally, if a region demands that we cancel a treaty with another to be in a relationship with them I'd be wary of that region.  My vision is an independent TSP, not one that veers to far in one or the other direction.

 

In fact, at some point my ideal is that TSP be seen as the negotiator to go to when regions might want us to mediate. This can happen if we are add relationships rather than subtract. 

 

P.S.

What is the protocol for informing a treatied ally?  I'd like to let Evil Wolf (?) or Blue Wolf know that we are in the process of voting for a repeal in case they would like to say something or make a case. 

[Southern Bellz]

I know that TNI has deployed in our defense in both coups.  I was more involved in organizing the defense in the first one, due to me being delegate, and I would say they were probably tied (with Unibot's splinter FRA group) for the second most significant to deploy enthusiastically in our support.  There was actually a small, now defunct UCR that launched a mostly unorganized military support, but vocally supported us instantly and almost everywhere.  As far as specifics go, I am not sure for our second coup, considering it is a wildly chaotic time, but they were one of our larger supporters.

 

As far as 'dropping TNI for TRR', I just think that is a terrible approach.  We have sent multiple delegation's to try to develop a treaty with TRR, and they are the ones not interested.  I understand they do not want to deal with TNI, but that is their choice, and if they want to isolate themselves from any regions associated with them in any way, then I respect that decision, but it should not influence us to drop a good ally.

 

As far as the RRA, I do not believe they have ever come to our aid, but I honestly don't remember much about military support in the Milo coup.  TRR has been largely indifferent towards TSP in all of my dealings.

[Unibot]

Repealing the TNI treaty due to 'baggage' involved in their war with the FRA in favour of TRR is... well it's amusing, considering TRR's membership in that organisation.

 

This implies the TNI-FRA war is anything other than TNI's farce of war which the FRA muses. TNI's war are simply political enterprises.

 

There are quotations of NES already having offered to end the TNI-UDL war with simple terms: give him a position in the UDL. Now normally, when a region goes to war with someone its for legitimate grievances which cannot be undone with a simple bribe. Suffice to say, UDL turned down NES's offer. 

 

Furthermore Cormac, your statement is misleading, TRR was a "neutral" region at the time it was invaded by TNI. TRR has only, as of two days ago, been a "defender" region. Furthermore, there is no document affirming independence as TSP's guiding ideology -- the MoFA who ran on a sharply pro-Independence platform lost. This isn't to say that TSP is a "defender" region, but that its "independence" philosophy has been over-exaggerated by commentators -- and that TSP may be more neutral than it is "independent". 

 

 

 

The South Pacific put quite a bit of distance between itself and The Rejected Realms on purpose due to the Devonitions coup. It seems premature to launch ourselves head first into deeper relations with a region TSP previously viewed skeptically

 

I said Milograd was being used to drive a stake between citizens and other regions -- I had no idea you were going to go as far back as Devonitians for the purposes of your political rhetoric. TRR and TSP already signed a peace agreement under one of Belschaft's terms, quite a while ago, burying the hatchet. If we're going to keep bringing out the old spear and do war chants at TRR, I think we need to reevaluate the sanity of our FA Policy. 

 

We normalized relations:

 

 

A Statement from

the South Pacific and the Rejected Realms

Regarding Our Regions’ Relationship and its Future

 
 
The Governments of the South Pacific and the Rejected Realms,
 
Realizing that the state of relations between both regions have not been the most desirable,
 
Reiterate that, despite this, they are not in a state of war or hostile towards each other,
 
Note that the Rejected Realms Army and the South Pacific Army have never declared war, or acted with any hostile intent against each other at any point, even during the most trying times of their relationship,
 
Acknowledge the troubles of the past and, determined to move past them, promise to work together for a brighter future on this day forward. 
 
Signed,
Milograd, Chairman of the South Pacific [2/2/13]
Whamabama, Delegate of The Rejected Realms [2/2/13]
Frattastan, Rejected Realms Army Commander [2/2/13]
Hileville, Minister of Foreign Affairs of the South Pacific [2/2/13]
 

 

And then.. it came out that Belschaft had planned a coup of TRR anyways -- and TRR still supported the Coalition during Milo's coup, even though he had sent the incriminating logs to Frattastan. That shows a patience and respect for the region which should be praised by The South Pacific, not ignored so that can go back to hating on Sedge.

 

While we're at it, let's oppose TWP-TSP relations because of TWP's connection to the ACC. *rolls his eyes*

[Unibot]

As far as 'dropping TNI for TRR', I just think that is a terrible approach.  We have sent multiple delegation's to try to develop a treaty with TRR, and they are the ones not interested.  I understand they do not want to deal with TNI, but that is their choice, and if they want to isolate themselves from any regions associated with them in any way, then I respect that decision, but it should not influence us to drop a good ally.

 

As far as the RRA, I do not believe they have ever come to our aid, but I honestly don't remember much about military support in the Milo coup.  TRR has been largely indifferent towards TSP in all of my dealings.

You have perpetuated this apathy of TRR towards TSP.


Back when we were considering TNI's treaty with TSP, I told you that they had recently invaded TRR and this would likely piss them off. Your response?

 

I really don't care too much about TRR after how they treated me. TNI has shown TSP more respect with this treaty than TRR has had in years.
 

 

We've allied ourselves with the region that invaded TRR and admittedly at the time, said we "didn't care" - and now we expect them to suddenly be okay with this? That's just rude and selfish -- it typifies how The South Pacific has been doing FA for the past two years. 

[Hileville]

Before we pursued a Treaty with TNI we had approached TRR twice about a treaty and close relations. Both times we were denied. I handled one of the discussions and I can't remember without looking who handled the other.