UDL - TNP

[Belschaft]

<a class='bbc_url' href='http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=13474293#p13474293'>From the UDL thread in GP;</a>
 

 
In regards to The North Pacific's Investigation,







[color=rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(253,255,252);]During this week, UDL Command received a PDF file by Lieutenant Ravania showing a private NPA thread – in that thread was Evil Wolf’s order to pile in Warhammer 40000 and Former Delegate Mcmasterdonia’s criticism of the decision. [/color]







[color=rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(253,255,252);]It should be clear that we did not order this action; Lieutenant Ravania did so under his free-will. An NPA Investigation, using information known by Lieutenant Eluvatar found that Lieutenant Ravania was responsible for the leak. [/color]







[color=rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(253,255,252);]In a discussion between the Chiefs of Staff, it was decided that Lieutenant Ravania and those other officers, who failed to report this leak should be reprimanded. The UDL does not condone breaking any regional or organizational trust given to it's members. Overall, the conversation was private and was meant to be private – as a sign of respect to the NPA, Lieutenant Tim, Lieutenant Mahaj and myself, Chief Unibot, also should have reported the leak to the NPA. [/color]







[color=rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(253,255,252);]Therefore, Lieutenant Ravania is reprimanded with a temporary two week demotion to the level of Senior Merryman, while Lieutenant Tim, Lieutenant Mahaj and Chief Unibot will be reprimanded with a one week demotion to the level of Senior Merryman, Senior Merryman and Merryman respectively. Hodori will serve as Chief of Orientation during this duration, while Chief Lieutenant Solm will serve as Chief of the Band and Lieutenant Earth will serve as Chief Lieutenant.[/color]







[color=rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(253,255,252);]Normally, leaking information from UDL’s Command Channel would be responded with a dishonorable discharge for Lieutenant Eluvatar, but in light of the ethical dilemma and conflict of interests posed and also, the pressing emotional circumstances he has faced, he has been acquitted of any hypothetical violations of our privacy policies. [/color]







[color=rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(253,255,252);]We sincerely apologize to The North Pacific Army for this breach of their security. Thank you for reading.[/color]







[color=rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(253,255,252);]Yours,[/color]



Merryman Unibot[color=rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Lucida Grande', 'Trebuchet MS', Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(253,255,252);].[/color]

 
Considering that our ally, TNP, is the wronged party in this matter I suggest that we take our lead from them. I am given to understand that this response - a two week demotion for the Lt. responsible - will not be deemed sufficient, and that TNP will probably be breaking diplomatic relations with the UDL.
 
I believe we should be prepared to do the same,

[Milograd]

:wall:
 
Am I the only person here experiencing a serious case of déjà vu? I feel as if this isn't the first time that the UDL slapped its leadership on the wrist for violating the sovereignty of a feeder region and promised never to do it again. 
 
The funny part of this for me is that I was asked to leave the UDL yesterday after I warned the lieutenants to tread carefully in TNP. They said that my advice was "unneeded" and "condescending" and that they knew what they were doing. I told them that they might mess up if they weren't careful, but Uni was more than happy to remind me that I'm an unpleasant, antiquated, alienating presence in the UDL, and another lieutenant told me that my concerns were "bullshit." I am no longer in the UDL, and I don't plan on ever giving them another chance.
 
With that said, I'm fine with breaking off diplomatic relations, provided that TNP does the same. I can't stand these violations of our allied regions' sovereignties, and I'm getting tired of reading about UDL drama that occurs because some of their prominent members don't know how to conduct themselves in the feeders. I still like all of their members personally and I admire the work they put into defending, mind you, but we can't be serious allies or even associates with them if they keep slipping up in the GCRs. It's unacceptable and toxic.
 
If there were any doubts, I think this seals the deal for us: we shouldn't even waste any more effort considering a treaty with the UDL. Ravania is a nice guy and a skilled defender, but he was absolutely wrong to violate the trust of TNP by leaking the information that he was granted access to as a NPA soldier. The North Pacific's private information should remain private, and sharing private military information with the UDL lieutenants was a violation of TNP's trust and laws. If we can't expect the leaders of the UDL to know better than this, I think that says a lot about how viable they are as serious allies to the South Pacific.
 
It's very unfortunate and disappointing that issues like this keep occurring. I can only applaud Eluvatar for putting TNP's sovereignty above the UDL in this case—he did the right thing yet again, and continues to earn my respect for his dedication to his home region's sovereignty. Many a person could learn a thing or two about loyalty simply by observing his conduct.
 
EDIT: Earth has informed me that Rav took the screenshots before I raised my concerns, which was still before his actions came to light. Regardless, I don't think that I was wrong to be concerned. Mistakes were made before I spoke, and unfortunately mistakes were made afterwards as well. I don't really know what to say other than that it's a shame that these events happened.

[Milograd]

<img src='http://i.imgur.com/JdBYTYn.png' alt='Posted Image' class='bbc_img' />

[Brutland and Norden]

So, should I also withdraw the in-game embassy?

[Belschaft]

Wait a bit. Right now this is just BW being BW - that he even waited that long was surprising. TNP will have something more official out soon enough.I'd suggest giving their official MoFA a poke and finding out more details.
 
And I'm in agreement with Milo on this. UDL has shown a shocking blaseness regarding the informational security/sovereignty of their own bloody allies. We cannot possibly work with these people until they have a change in institutional attitude, which will probably mean a change in leader.

[Milograd]

Their MoFA is Elu, and his deputy is UDL Lt. Tim.
 
I'm not sure if that is the best idea right now. I'm not saying that it is a bad idea, but I'm not sure if it is a good one either.

[Hileville]

I am in full agreement with Carta on this.  I have tendered my resignation to the UDL a few minutes ago.  I have had it with this behavior and Uni is clearly condoning such.
 
As Minister of Foreign Affairs I will be closing our on forum Embassy later today and ask that B&N do the same in game.  This is ridiculous and I no longer want any association with them for TSP.  We let it slide last year but this is the last straw.  A suspension of the LT's and not outright barring Rav is unacceptable.

[Drugged Monkeys]

I agree. This is a repeat issue and we should cut our ties. I'll have more when I get off work

[Hileville]

<p class="bbc_center"><img src='http://www.thenorthpacific.org/images/arms.png' alt='Posted Image' class='bbc_img' />
 
 It has recently come to my attention that a rather disturbing series of events has occurred involving several members of the United Defenders League and the North Pacific Army. It appears that Ravania, a high ranking Lieutenant in the UDL and a low ranking Private in the North Pacific Army, has been taking information from the private areas of the North Pacific Army forums and passing it on to the United Defenders League.  Unibot, founder of United Defenders League, has issued a statement, <a class='bbc_url' href='http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/single/?p=8088665&t=7033727'>found here</a>, in which he apologizes for this leak of intelligence and hands out several rather meaningless two and one week temporary demotions to several UDL members. The United Defenders League denies sending Ravania into the North Pacific Army as a spy and claims he was acting on his own motive. However, what the statement by Unibot declines to mention is how the NPA came to find out about this information. As it turns out, Eluvatar, a Lt. in both the UDL and the NPA, found the leak and choose his loyalty to TNP over that of the UDL, passing proof of the leak to the Deputy Minister of Defense, Scandigrad. In response, Unibot immediately Dishonorably Discharged Eluvatar from the UDL ranks. This Discharge did not last, as the rest of Unibot's Lt.'s immediately protested and, begrudgingly Eluvatar was re-instated into the UDL with full rank intact. I can very confidently say that had Eluvatar not provided us with evidence of a UDL high ranking officer stealing information (in fact at least an entire thread worth of private NPA conversations in PDF form) that no one within the United Defenders League ranks would have come to the North Pacific Army or the North Pacific Intelligence Agency to report this leak, and Ravania would continue to steal information from the NPA to provide to the UDL, officially authorized by the UDL or not. I feel that swift and decisive action must be taken in response to this incident, so I am issuing the following edicts: -North Pacific Army Private Ravania is hereby dishonorably discharged and I am directing the Attorney General to peruse appropriate charges against him. -North Pacific Army Lieutenant Eluvatar is hereby promoted to the rank of Major for his efforts in uncovering this security leak. -The UDL in-game embassy is here-by ordered to be closed, the on-forums embassy is to remain open. -The North Pacific Intelligence Agency will hereby form a team to investigate the leak, determine if this was the first of such leaks, and if not, determine how much secure information was stolen, who it was given to, how it was used for, and on whose authority was it stolen. I will be naming an Agent to head up that investigation shortly. -The North Pacific Army is hereby prohibited from working with the United Defenders League in any official capacity for the period of three weeks, ending the first hour of 3APR2013, Greenwich Mean Time. Any NPA member found to be circumventing this declaration will be demoted one rank per offense. Joint UDL-TNP citizens are exempt from this declaration. Thank you for your time, [color=#0000FF;]-Blue Wolf II[/color], Vice-Delegate of The North Pacific, Acting Delegate in the Interim.

[Milograd]

You beat me to posting it.

[Brutland and Norden]

Well I think we should not go further than what TNP did. We can close the in-game embassy, allowing the forum embassy to remain open.

[Hileville]

The in-game embassy needs to be closed.  I strongly feel the forum embassy should be closed as well.  I feel that we have given the UDL the benefit of the doubt on several occasions.  With the past history with us and now the actions in TNP basically being supported by Uni we do not need to have any further relations with them whatsoever.

[Milograd]

Do we want to draft a statement about our embassy closure?
 
If so, I would like it if we cooperatively wrote it. I'm going to sleep soon, but I would like to review any statements we may draft before we send them.

[Belschaft]

UDL is going to have to work to gain our trust back. There has been a pattern of behavior over the last year that has seen them cross the line time and time again; each time we have said 'Seriously guys, that is unacceptable. Do not do something like that again.' Now that pattern of behavior has been expanded to TNP.
 
I agree with Hile. They show no sign of changing, and as such we can no longer work with them on any level.

[Hileville]

<img src='http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n525/dphileman/tsp_logo.png' alt='Posted Image' class='bbc_img' />

Statement from the Cabinet of the South Pacific

in regards to Relations with the United Defenders League

 

The Cabinet of the South Pacific is aware of the situation that has transpired in our close ally of The North Pacific.  We find the actions that were taken by Ravania, a UDL Lieutenant despicable.  We further applaud the actions of Eluvatar in exposing the release of confidential information by Ravania to the North Pacific Army Leadership.  The Cabinet further applauds the steps Acting Delegate, Blue Wolf has taken with the closure of the in-game Embassy of the UDL and the discharge of Ravania from the North Pacific Army.
 
The Cabinet notes that the South Pacific has also over the last year and a few months had strained relations with the United Defenders League as well.  It is with great displeasure that the actions taken by the United Defenders League in response to the leak in the NPA are so limited.  It is the belief of the Cabinet that these action condone such behavior.  We believe that by only removing the title of Lieutenant from Ravania is a slap on the wrist.  Unibot himself stated that Ravania ran all minor update operations before obtaining the ceremonial title to begin with.  This leads us to believe that nothing will change in the command structure with the trivial punishments levied.
 
Therefore noting the response taken by the UDL in the North Pacific and our prior strained history with the organization the Cabinet hereby orders the closure of our in-game and forum Embassies with the UDL.  The events that occurred with the leak in the North Pacific and the following actions by Unibot and the punishments that have been levied are unacceptable.  The South Pacific will no longer stand by and allow the United Defenders League to trample the rights of Feeders and Sinkers and make a sorry attempt and rectifying their actions.  From this point forward the Coalition of the South Pacific and all it's entities will be barred from participating in any foreign relations, military operations, and support of the United Defenders League.  Joint citizens and members of the United Defenders League will not be treated any different than they previously were.
 
Thank You,
 
The Cabinet of the South Pacific

[Hileville]

I drafted the above for discussion as the statement we release.  Feel free to change as you wish.

[Belschaft]

<img src='http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n525/dphileman/tsp_logo.png' alt='Posted Image' class='bbc_img' />

Statement from the Cabinet of the South Pacific

in regards to Relations with the United Defenders League

 

The Cabinet of the South Pacific is aware of the situation that has transpired in our close ally, The North Pacific. We find the actions that were taken by Ravania, a UDL Lieutenant and NPA Private, despicable. We further applaud the actions of Eluvatar in exposing the release of confidential information by Ravania to the North Pacific Army Leadership. The Cabinet further applauds the steps Acting Delegate Blue Wolf has taken with the closure of the in-game Embassy of the UDL and the discharge of Ravania from the North Pacific Army.

 

The Cabinet notes that the South Pacific has also, over the last year and a few months, had strained relations with the United Defenders League. A pattern of behavior we believe to be unacceptable has developed within the UDL, that has seen them repeatedly act inappropriately towards GCR regions and then fail to take proper action. Previously, and based upon assurances that such incidents would not reoccur, we have been willing to trust the UDL and continue working with them. That trust has run out, and will have to be re-earned. We are greatly displeased that the actions taken by the United Defenders League in response to the leak in the NPA are so limited. It is the belief of the Cabinet that these action condone such behavior. We believe that only removing the title of Lieutenant from Ravania, and then only for two weeks, is a slap on the wrist. Unibot himself stated that Ravania ran all minor update operations before obtaining the ceremonial title to begin with. We see no reason to believe that this demotion is anything more than nominal. We do not believe that anything will change in the UDL's institutional pattern of behavior whilst trivial punishments are levied for grievous offences committed against their nominal partners. It is only when the UDL comes to realize that their behavior is unacceptable and not in keeping with friendly diplomatic relations that they will change.

 

Therefore, having taken full note of the responses of the UDL in the North Pacific and of our prior strained history with the organization, the Cabinet hereby orders the immediate closure of our in-game and forum Embassies with the UDL, and the total cessation of diplomatic relations. The events that occurred with the leak in the North Pacific, the following actions by Unibot, and the punishments that have been levied are unacceptable. Whilst the UDL has an unquestionable right to manage its own internal affairs as it sees fit, it must expect to be judged accordingly. We can no longer support the actions of a group utterly incapable of either maintaining appropriate behavior among its senior members or adequately responding to said behavior. From this point forward the Coalition of the South Pacific and all its entities will be barred from participating in any foreign relations or military operations with the United Defenders League. Joint citizens and members of the United Defenders League will not be treated any different than they previously were.

 

Thank You,

 

The Cabinet of the South Pacific

[Hileville]

As current Chief of the Band of the United Defenders League, I have ordered an official investigation into the actions taken regarding the NPA and Lieutenant Ravania's actions. As UDL is currently under management away from the misconduct itself, I felt it prudent to review the punishments given and the action to be taken from this point.
 <strong class='bbc'>An overview of the events is as such:</strong>-The North Pacific Army entered a founderless region to support a raid by The Black Hawks. An order was given in NPA forums to move in and endorse the Invader Delegate there.-The NPA were noted in the region and Tim-Opolis lodged an inquiry with the Delegate to inquire why. -Ravania no longer felt loyal to the NPA as they were violating the sovereignty of another region in their actions.-A discussion was had in a private UDL channel regarding NPA's actions, leading to quotes being posted in that channel from NPA's secret forum by Lieutenant Ravania. A PDF screenshot of said private discussions was then shared.-Tim, Solm, and Mahaj were present during this and aware of this situation in TNP. Unibot also became aware of this.-Eluvatar became aware of the conversation and told Unibot that he felt obligated to share it with TNP and had done so.- At first, Eluvatar was reprimanded, but this was swiftly revoked in understanding of Eluvatar's commitments, beliefs and actions, as well as various mitigating circumstances. -An inquiry began regarding the actions taken by Eluvatar, leading to the discovery of the actions taken by Ravania. This lead to a discussion which unfortunately could not (due to pressing time constraints and the importance of the issue) involve all Lieutenants and other chiefs. - A statement involving the temporary dismissal of four involved Lieutenants and the Chief of Band was drafted and published, in recognition of the need for a timely affirmation of the wrongdoing that had occured. To start, the UDL apologises for the brusque response from last night. Due to the desire to address the situation as it unfolded, it was decided that an immediate cessation of duty for those whose conduct was unbecoming of a UDL Lieutenant was the most sensible action to take under the circumstances. This meant that we strove to ensure that our grasp on the factual overview was correct, but complete understanding had to wait until a later point, due to the cross-timezone nature of the Lieutenants. The UDL does not condone Ravania's actions. As an organization that stands for the free sovereignty of regions across Nationstates, we have to hold members responsible for the violations of said sovereignty. Ravania has been demoted from Lieutenant to Merryman of the UDL for his behavior and disrespect to the North Pacific Army and will be on probation for such actions until deemed necessary; we support the action that The North Pacific has taken in removing Ravania from their ranks and doing what they feel is legally proper. We will not be extending Ravania's punishment in the UDL as we feel that TNP is addressing the situation as needed. We will continue to assist in any investigation by The North Pacific about this misconduct if needed. The punishments doled out for other members of the UDL regarding not reporting said incident will be as already stated, though this Private Investigation will continue if needed past the expiration dates of said punishments. There will also be a new policy regarding dualism and acceptable behavior drafted within the UDL as well as a discussion on Lieutenant-specific behaviour. There is a very fine line regarding dualism, whether it be with regions, organizations, or even friends. That line was crossed in taking private information from a private forum. We still give high credence to the idea that one can be loyal to more than one region or organization at a time. However, this requires that one must respect the trust that is therefore placed on oneself, and act responsibly with such trust. The violation of that trust is something that understandably cannot be tolerated; when a person feels that they can no longer be loyal to two places at once, they must respectfully relinquish their rights and responsibilities in one or the other or both if necessary. If there becomes a clash, one must find a way to untangle themselves from it without harming anyone that they are loyal to. There is no excuse for violating that loyalty.  While we understand the confusion and the mistrust of the UDL and our members abroad, at this point, we sincerely hope that this does not reflect on all UDL members everywhere. Dualism is trust given to individuals, not to organizations overall. Individuals who have earned that trust in the eyes of their region should still be respected with such trust. Individuals who have abused that trust should be punished as such. Overall, we apologize to NPA and to The North Pacific for this behavior. It was improper and it will not happen again. Included here are links to screenshots of the only thread on the UDL forum, besides our former statement regarding this. If you would prefer to have this thread seen on the forum, you could either ask Hileville or Eluvatar about its legitimacy, or we could move it to another area for your inquiry to peruse. The blanked out parts do not relate to your inquiry. and . Once again, we apologise for what has occurred, and will do our best to make amends. -UDL Standing Leadership For those not wanting to read they are doing everything they announced last night and nothing more.

[Brutland and Norden]

<img src='http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n525/dphileman/tsp_logo.png' alt='Posted Image' class='bbc_img' />

Statement from the Cabinet of the South Pacific

in regards to Relations with the United Defenders League

 

The Cabinet of the South Pacific is aware of the situation that has transpired in our close ally of The North Pacific.  We find the actions that were taken by Ravania, a UDL Lieutenant despicable.  We further applaud the actions of Eluvatar in exposing the release of confidential information by Ravania to the North Pacific Army Leadership.  The Cabinet further applauds the steps Acting Delegate, Blue Wolf has taken with the closure of the in-game Embassy of the UDL and the discharge of Ravania from the North Pacific Army.

 

The Cabinet notes that the South Pacific has also over the last year and a few months had strained relations with the United Defenders League. A pattern of behavior we believe to be unacceptable has developed within the UDL, that has seen them repeatedly act inappropriately towards GCR regions and then fail to take proper action. Previously, and based upon assurances that such incidents would not reoccur, we have been willing to trust the UDL and continue working with them. That trust has run out, and will have to be re-earned. We are greatly displeased that the actions taken by the United Defenders League in response to the leak in the NPA are so limited. It is the belief of the Cabinet that these action condone such behavior. We believe that only removing the title of Lieutenant from Ravania, and then only for two weeks, is a slap on the wrist. Unibot himself stated that Ravania ran all minor update operations before obtaining the ceremonial title to begin with. We see no reason to believe that this demotion is anything more than nominal. We do not believe that anything will change in the UDL's institutional pattern of behavior whilst trivial punishments are levied for grievous offences committed against their nominal allies. It is only when the UDL comes to realize that their behavior is unacceptable  and not in keeping with friendly diplomatic relations, that they will change.

 

Therefore noting the response taken by the UDL in the North Pacific and our prior strained history with the organization the Cabinet hereby orders the closure of our in-game and forum Embassies with the UDL.  The events that occurred with the leak in the North Pacific and the following actions by Unibot and the punishments that have been levied are unacceptable. The South Pacific will no longer stand by and allow the United Defenders League to trample the rights of Feeders and Sinkers and make a sorry attempt at rectifying their actions. From this point forward the Coalition of the South Pacific and all [color=#ff0000;]its[/color] entities will be barred from participating in any foreign relations, military operations, and support of the United Defenders League in any way. Joint citizens and members of the United Defenders League will not be treated any different than they previously were.

 

Thank You,

 

The Cabinet of the South Pacific

 
Sorry if a bit too grammar nazi-ish...
 
So, where will we post this?

[Hileville]

Bel's most recent edit looks good.  B&N may want to read over that one and correct as needed.

[Belschaft]

If there's no typo's, I suggest posting it the embassy over at UDL and on the GP forums.
 
We should then close all embassies at our end.

[Belschaft]

Sorry, just made one last change. Couldn't get the wording quite right with one sentence.

[Brutland and Norden]

So, where is this going to be posted, if ever? <a class='bbc_url' href='http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=220531'>Here</a>? Or a new thread?
 
I'm still soliciting for other cabinet member's thoughts/opinions. I'll get back to the issue when I come home from work.

[Hileville]

So, where is this going to be posted, if ever? <a class='bbc_url' href='http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=220531'>Here</a>? Or a new thread?
 
I'm still soliciting for other cabinet member's thoughts/opinions. I'll get back to the issue when I come home from work.

 
Our GP embassy would be better IMO.  Our embassy on the UDL forums and our Embassy here as well as SPINN forum.
 
I can post if you like?

[Drugged Monkeys]

I approve