The Great Council 2012

[Antariel]

Let me tell you now, that's not how I'd envisage the government becoming, or something I would support.

[Hileville]

I do not want our government to turn into that either. I think we can use this thread to start looking through the laws and determining what needs to be fixed or thrown out completely. I also believe we should keep our ears open to all suggestions as you never know what could come up. I don't want to go into this with just an idea that we are just fixing things as it may harm creativity in coming up with new ideas.

[Hileville]

I have been reviewing past discussion on changes to the charter and found a very interesting post and I want everyone to read it and tell me what has changed besides the charter we are using. Todd's words in this post mirror exactly what some of us feel today.

<a class='bbc_url' href='http://z1.invisionfree.com/forums/theSPacific/index.php?showtopic=9341&view=findpost&p=2807646'>http://z1.invisionfree.com/forums/theSPaci...dpost&p=2807646</a>

This was posted in September of 2010 and almost 2 1/2 hears later people are having the same feelings. My question is what can we collectively do to solve these problems? If we go to the "wright a draft and tell us exactly what you want" we will go nowhere. Governments change over time and we are at a crucial stage in TSP's life. I don't think this region can survive another 2 1/2 years without SERIOUS discussion on change.

[Antariel]

Ooh! Ooh! I know this one, on what has changed.Since that post, TSP HAS become a region of the few.

[Sheepa]

Tsrill I think that's a very unfair depiction of recent policy. Time and again in 2011 attempts were made to sort out laws, and it never got anywhere, or got dismissed, or got opposed; at the moment some of our laws are in clear contradiction to one another. We've got creativity to get round it, we need to actually DO it, and the council should hopefully generate activity. And activity with RESULTS, not just procrastination that then dies off.

It sounds pretty Frakish, but at times I do feel some of our members are becoming opposed to change in any form, and that it throttles activity. Heck, we can't even streamline the forum page without a discussion going to the admins, for something as trivial as archiving some long dead boards, which have bizarrely persisted long after their use ended. Branding measures to streamline change for the sake of change, seems to ignore the fact that, seriously, under the current system,

THIS
REGION
IS
DYING.

We are losing numbers, activity, etc etc. I cannot speak for IRC as I don't have access, but in terms of forum activity ever since I've played I've seen continual decline, from the vibrant community that we were in the aftermath of Dev. People making a couple of comments a day works when there are lots of people, but not when we are losing numbers. With respect, under the current Cabinet I can rarely recall any kind of *forum* post by Elu or Uni (or Sheepy, to be honest), and we've already lost an MoFA. I know this is an NS-wide issue, but surely we need to look for solutions, not trust in old, ineffective systems to solve the problem?

In fairness, I know Cabinet have some activity BCD, but I always tried to act in the main visible forum too.

I'm not entirely sure what you are arguing; you say the last council was not long ago, tehn say maybe there is a point in having one. You say you are worried about things breaking down then say that this is not true.

On voting lengths; does 4 days not give somebody the time to log in, check the law/discussion and vote? Particularly if two of the days are weekend?

I ambassador for TSP across the feeders. TWP? It's forum community is on its last legs. TP (from my brief sojourn there during my trial) - practically dead. TEP shows more life than most, but the real activity is in Balder and Osiris, among the GCRs at least. We are so hidebound we are offputting for new players who desert for the UCR's, and it keeps us declining, and we need to do something about it. The Council, properly agendad and publicised, seems a step in the right direction; I'd even suggest we invite a few of the mods along to see if they have anything worth contributing (maybe not Sedge though, old wounds ). Sedge warned back at the coup that either the region would reorganise itself and gain vibrancy in response, or slowly sink back into inactivity; I fear we are doing the latter.

I should point out that although I haven't made any public threads recently, work is being done in the Ministry of Security which should benefit activity when the new and improved SPA begins recruiting. Being in the Cabinet is more than just posting threads. I'm active every day.

What TSP needs is a clearer outline of Cabinet responsibilities. It's great that we have the creative freedom to explore new ideas or do things our own way, but it should be made clear what general duties each cabinet member is expected to perform. I almost didn't run as MoS due to the lack of any clear guidelines or direction. I know now, but cabinet members should pass on such information for their future counterparts so tasks are documented and can be improved over time.

Our IRC channel has benefitted from a fortnightly Quiz; two have taken place so far. New ideas can work, the important thing is that we keep trying. TSP is far from dead.

[Antariel]

Your problem in partiuclar with knowing job role stems from the fact MoS was somewhat of a knee-jerk to Sedge and Frak....I really can't agree with you on activity levels though; they're patently well down to the kind of level back when I first started this game in february 2011, looked at the forum, saw nothingever happened, and didn't join, until the Dev coup livened things up.

[Sheepa]

I attribute the decline in activity over the last few months to several regulars becoming inactive due to RL constraints, with no new regulars coming in.The Coup was a big event, and it was a happy consequence of what took place, and it could have easily gone the other way.Players are drawn to the next big thing. Osiris and Balder have had an impact on all the GCRs, not just TSP.It's not that we're losing active players, it's that we aren't recruiting any new ones.

[Antariel]

CyreleRebeltopia, largelyHEM, pretty muchBelsUni logs in about once a week now it seems.johnson!Regulars who've gone since I've been here.And yes, no new people in. Partly due to the laws!

[Haxstree]

I miss Cyrele

[Antariel]

Or, as I revealed Cy to be, Max Berry

[Haxstree]

Or, as I revealed Cy to be, Max Berry

She is not :angry:


LIESSSSSSSS AND SLANDERRRRRRRRRR

Quick! To the Ministry of Irrefutable Justice!

*puts Ant's head on the chopping block*

You must say once and for all that Cyrele is not Max Berry, or you will get it mister.

:none:

[Antariel]

Check Cy's forum account 'title', and tell me I'm wrong

[Southern Bellz]

I will join in on legal reform under one condition. I want a TSP Council focused not on LAWS but on actions and policy. If I can get that commitment from my cabinet, they will have the little time I can spare.THEN for the policy to be acted on!!!!This region needs a fundamental shift on how it approaches policy. I think our cycle of a weak executive and a strong assembly has built an odd culture here, where the people of this region WANTS change but yet is the very body holding up action. We have leaders with bold ideas who don't have others buy into the ideas.I think we need to have a process that combines our leaders taking policy and ideas to the people, get people to help develop these ideas and then and ONLY then will this whole region be accountable for our own actions!!!

[Antariel]

Um....you can put your ideas forward at the council....I don't think we're off the cuff going to agree to focus solely on your condition; lots of us have ideas that can be discussed at council.I assume from 'my cabinet' you are planning to run for delegacy again?

[Hileville]

I would like to keep the council open to all suggestions. I have my own suggestion I am working on which will focus on a slight realignment of our government but not go away from elected Ministers. This includes changing the complete face of the Judiciary. I also have thought about what some people have said here and am starting to agree that this needs to be more of a brainstorming session that includes ways to increase activity but not leaving out changing our government. I don't believe the answer is to throw out everything that we have here and start over. It is an option that can be heard but I don't think I could support that. The changes I am seeing would strenthen the Executive Branch while keeping our Legislative body strong. We do however need to look at some of our laws which I will finish my review of them before the weekend and will list the ones I believe we need to look at and change. We are at a point where we cannot even get someone else to serve on the EC to at least free up Todd in case he would like to serve on the Cabinet. We are at a point that instead of taking this Great Council on with an open mind of possible change we have sunk to fighting amongst ourselves on whether or not one is necessary. We have reached a vital point in the region that we are presented with a choice and the coice we make could have lasting effects on the region. We have reached a point where we have sunk further and further into inactivity and are not trying to build a base for the future of the region. We have allowed this to continue for too long. It is time now for us to move into this Great Council with an open mind and willing to look at all possible options. Governments fail and governments change over time. We as a region need to be prepared to take any means necessary to make sure TSP moves forward into greatness and not sink into dismay. It is time for us to collectively embrace the future and stop trying to hold back the past. I know this is going to be more difficult for some than others. I am one of the newer contributing members to the region only being a member of the forum for 7 months. I don't know all of the history of the region but I do know that we have the potential to make this region better than what it was at any time before now. We as members of The South Pacific need to make sure that this region is on the right track. I fear that if we don't our governemtn may not last much longer. No government lasts forever and change does not come easy but we have the ability to attempt to make change easier. We cannot keep debating on the need of this Great Council as I see no other way for us to continue without one. I am asking each member of to embrace this Great Council with the idea that we may and will get good ideas to imporve the region. Now we may not end up using these ideas but we will consider them and collectively decide what the best course of action for the region is.I am reminded of a quote I once heard ?Man cannot discover new oceans unless he has the courage to lose sight of the shore.? -Andre Gide. Everyone here can agree on one thing and that is we need to make TSP a bette place to be. We need to be willing to loose sight of the past to move into the future. I know I am asking for a lot from some of the members of this forum but is it right for those members to be the fortunate ones who were here for a TSP that propered and was full of activity? I and many others were not here in the days of the past and desire that we rebuild what we once had. This may requre changes to our government and the way we run the region but it is something we have to consider.I am ready to embrace this Great Council with an open mind, are you?

[Unibot]

It is time for us to collectively embrace the future and stop trying to hold back the past.? I know this is going to be more difficult for some than others.

I think the problem is these "new" players have a "history" of continually immersing themselves into regions and trying to overthrow them or harassing citizens without any respect for these institutions whatsoever.



And when we say new players we mean Ant and Haxstree.. so lets just stop pretending otherwise.



You're telling established players that their concerns aren't legitimate and people like Haxstree and Ant's concerns <em class='bbc'>are</em> legitimate and they're the "future" of the region and the rest of the region's concerns don't really matter. Whether our civil liberties should be protected hardly matter anymore, Haxstree and Ant tell us we should scale back our judiciary .. so we plan to do it. This is an appeal of novelty, but for most of us, it's an appeal to the minority like Haxstree and Ant who have been looking for a private advantage.



Haxstree was so unpopular with our electorate, he hasn't won a goddahm election in the South Pacific... yet he's been *appointed* to our Cabinet and has spent most of the time trying to divide the Cabinet into his camp, the *new*, *modern* camp and the old camp: the one that opposes his dubious vision of The Haxstreeian Pacific. What makes the South Pacific so great is are our community values of joviality, sense of community and the protection of our civil liberties. Under The Haxstreeian Pacific regime (which we've been under whether he's been elected or not), we moved away from this forum being a nice place and embracing those values... since if we don't agree with Haxstree and Ant we're hounded and harassed and we've had to crack open the lawbooks and turn our culture of joviality into a culture of law and technicalities .. whatever we've done we've done to curtail this movement against our region. Haxstree said in our cabinet -- rather comically-- that we needed to artificially establish a bogeyman or enemy to hate but what he's really been establishing is a silent civil war.

I am ready to embrace this Great Council with an open mind, are you?

The problem is you have a very closed mind, you're already set on the reforms you've praised in that extensive speech. That's not an open mind at all.

[Hileville]

Bullshit Uni. The future is not Hax and Ant the future is new nations that we get to join the forum. Yes I am working on my own reform proposal but I keep an open mind and am willing to listen to anything. If you are going to tell me that we don't need to fix things like our election law and our judiciary you are absolutely insane. We have three different laws that govern our elections (I originally thought it was 2). Don't you dare tell me if mind is open or closed because you have no idea what I am thinking. I like everyone else have a right to propose changes and fixes to the law that does not mean that I am dead set on those specified changes. I stood against Haxstree's proposal of a kingdom and would more than likely do so today. Yes I may like others not want to completely blow up the Charter and start from scratch but if people want to propose it then we need to have an open mind and consider it.I also don't like your quotations around appointed when discussing Haxstree. I did what was my given right by the Charter and picked someone for the job that nobody else ran for. Haxstree got the job in part because he was the only other person who ran for elections and partly because there were not to many other people around to take it. Carta left the region and we needed someone to fill the position.I also don't believe it is in the best interest of the region for you to refer to comments in our cabinet area as that is discussion with the cabinet and not with the region.ADDITION:I am not telling people there concerns are invalid I am saying lets not fight over something that makes no sense to fight about. The old guard vs. new blood is an argument I am not willing to get into. I am asking everyone to go into this Council with an open mind because that is what we need to do. Whether we come out as a Dictatorship or a government that resembles the United States is not my choice it is the region as a whole. One or two people do not decide the direction of the region we do it collectively.

[Sheepa]

In what possible scenario in the realms of reality could Haxtree and Antariel exert that much control over the Government, Unibot?Anyone manipulating theregion for their own selfish motives in such a brazen manner as you describe would be pretty obvious wouldn't they? Please tell me this isn't an 'old guard' vs 'new guard' argument. That mentality isn't helpful at all.I for one think huge constitutional changes could be harmful, so if there are to be reforms I would expect them to be treated as individual ammendments.I certainly don't sit in any sort of camp and I will treat any proposals of reform with scrutiny and caution. Radical reforms aren't a magic remedy for stagnation.

[Southern Bellz]

You have my full, public support Hileville. That is the best post I have seen come out of The South Pacific government in ages.Stay positive, idealistic, and a willingness to work by democratic committee, and you will have my full support and cooperation.

[Southern Bellz]

Um....you can put your ideas forward at the council....I don't think we're off the cuff going to agree to focus solely on your condition; lots of us have ideas that can be discussed at council.

I assume from 'my cabinet' you are planning to run for delegacy again?

The cabinet of my region represents me. I have no desire to run for delegate when I see Hile on the path to being a far better delegate than I was.

[Antariel]

Wow, I thought the forum was quiet tonight, then I hit this.

Let me say in advance I agree with Hil's first epic mega post.

Right, Uni;

'I think the problem is these "new" players have a "history" of continually immersing themselves into regions and trying to overthrow them or harassing citizens without any respect for these institutions whatsoever.

And when we say new players we mean Ant and Haxstree.. so lets just stop pretending otherwise.'

When have I 'immersed myself' in any region other than this one? You well know I kept all my nations OUT of TP during the coup attempt, and worked with natives. I have NEVER acted against TSP to overthrow it, nor have I 'harassed' anyone. Nor have I shown no respect to these institutions; I call as an example the very legalism over the Charter that I defended and you almost resigned over, not saying more as Hil doesn't want cabinet matters discussed in public.

When have I attacked our laws and such? I've said we need reform to encourage new players, I haven't suggested that the whole of TSP is a joke or anything; don't confuse change with revolution, please. Nor am I sure why my concerns, or anyone elses, need be more 'legitimate' than anyone else; we're all equal members of TSP, our views all matter. How on earth the request to stage a council to debate this is getting so much hatred I don't even.

Hil isn't saying me and Hax are going to rule the region; he, and I, and Hax, are all saying we need new blood to keep the region going. I'm not sure where I have said we should scale back the judiciary, unless calling your role in that fake TG despicable is just being used against me. Again, reform to deal with a currect contradiction in our laws is perfectly valid. And please don't confuse 'streamlining the forums', something which appears to have caused some angst, as destroying the region. I just want less dead boards to look at when I log in, hoping against hope that someone other than Hil has been active on-forum.

How would changing the judiciary (which I have not laid out as a plan), give me private advantage? Accuse with examples please, not vague speculation.

'Haxstree was so unpopular with our electorate, he hasn't won a goddahm election in the South Pacific... yet he's been *appointed* to our Cabinet and has spent most of the time trying to divide the Cabinet into his camp, the *new*, *modern* camp and the old camp: the one that opposes his dubious vision of The Haxstreeian Pacific.'

Our 'electorate' is about 10 people, the majority of whom believed him to be Frak for ages. Has he tried to coup the region now he's in office? No. Since Hax got here, I've argued for a more tolerant attitude to him, and I'm disappointed to still not be seeing one. Judge people on their behaviour based on time and place, not something AS did years ago.

' What makes the South Pacific so great is are our community values of joviality, sense of community and the protection of our civil liberties.'

Really Uni? How does that square with you logging in rarely if at all, never really posting outside of BCD (unless you are doing the bare minimum in your job, which could have helped on this legal reform issue weeks ago rather than whinged about it now)? Do you even take part in the 'jovial' forum games? No. No you do not. TSP is just an inconvenience from your UDL duties, and you contribute as little as you can get away with.

' Under The Haxstreeian Pacific regime (which we've been under whether he's been elected or not), we moved away from this forum being a nice place and embracing those values'

Rubbish. So you are accusing Hil of bowing to all of Hax's ideas? Sore that he's not doing exactly what you tell him, as would happen in the UDL? Deal with it; we voted Hil for delegate, and if you want to oppose his ideas, telling him he's being controlled by Hax is probably not the best way to do it.

'... since if we don't agree with Haxstree and Ant we're hounded and harassed and we've had to crack open the lawbooks and turn our culture of joviality into a culture of law and technicalities ..whatever we've done we've done to curtail this movement against our region. '

Because we've never had massive arguments over minor details of the charter before. Say, under Belshaft. Remember the one? Yes, thought so. I'd also be interested to know where 'not agreein with' me (or Hax) has actually had any impact; is it in having legal reform? Because if you'd have actually ever posted in the Assembly, you'd know that legal reform proposals have been kicking around in various forms since June (when I joined the forums) at least.

'Haxstree said in our cabinet -- rather comically-- that we needed to artificially establish a bogeyman or enemy to hate but what he's really been establishing is a silent civil war.'

Which you've decided to make a noisy, public civil war, though it's no such thing unless one of you is planning on couping the delegacy. In which case I'll oppose you with everything I can muster.

'The problem is you have a very closed mind, you're already set on the reforms you've praised in that extensive speech. That's not an open mind at all. '

Pfft. So Hil can't even endorse his own ideas, while asking you for yours at the same time? Yes, he is SO closed-minded. So close minded he won't consider any reform- oh wait, that's what he's suggesting. So close minded that over the past week I've spoken to him he's considered various different ideas we've batted around. That's right, Hil and I talk. A lot. Usually because we're the only ones on the darn forum! But more because we both care about the future of this region, and want to make it as bright as we can.

On to Hil:

'Bullshit Uni.'

OK, a clearer summation of my view.

'The future is not Hax and Ant the future is new nations that we get to join the forum.'

I think the future is...everyone really. Nobody needs to stop contributing to the region, be it me, Hax, Uni, Bels, Bellz, Hil or any new players; the point is, we DO need some new players.

'you are absolutely insane'

Body blow! I don't think you are insane. Just overly conservative and/or paranoid in this instance.

'I stood against Haxstree's proposal of a kingdom and would more than likely do so today.'

Good point. Can we also recall that I did not support the kingdom idea, which to be fair Hax has not raised since TSP proved not really responsive to it.

On Hax's 'appointment'; perfectly legitimate, check the Charter Uni (or is this just legalism? ) And the point that we lack members is also important; if you ban me from office, and our membership is low, you can't complain if people you have a problem with are needed to fill positions. Unless, you, y'know, recruited some new TSP members to give us a wider choice. And that doesn't mean parachuting in more of the UDL, before that happens.

Sheepy's post;

'In what possible scenario in the realms of reality could Haxtree and Antariel exert that much control over the Government, Unibot?'

Precisely. I can talk to Hil, that doesn't mean I control his actions or thoughts; the fact things I support often get through is that Hil and I have similar views on a lot of things, and I tend to largely support his policies for that reason. We have differed in the past though, and that's because we have separate views; Hil can and does act as he sees fit, that is his power as delegate.

'Anyone manipulating the region for their own selfish motives in such a brazen manner as you describe would be pretty obvious wouldn't they?'

*Hides face behind a cloak and cackles like a comic-book villain*

'Please tell me this isn't an 'old guard' vs 'new guard' argument. That mentality isn't helpful at all.'

- plus the terminology doesn't work if we're arguing for new(er) players than ourselves. It would be old/new/future guard, which makes little sense. There doesn't need to be any kind of old/new divide, just discussion involving all those present, and a willingness to at least consider the ideas of others.

'I for one think huge constitutional changes could be harmful, so if there are to be reforms I would expect them to be treated as individual ammendments.'

I'd agree; I would be unlikely to support any move to a delegate appointing all ministers, as noted above. If the region went dictatorial, I'd oppose that to the utmost, and then leave, though I'd probably get banjected during resistance

Let me reiterate; I would never seek to harm TSP. Never. And I've supported Hil's delegacy to the hilt. I fear we are becoming too hidebound to even consider the possibility of change, and that worries me; it isn't nice to see the old accusations of Sedge and Frak seemin to be proven right. I can't for the life of me work out why the idea of a council is causing such a big to-do; if you don't agree with policies brought up there, oppose them! But at least hear the policies out!

Stop trying to blame Hax and I for pointing out things which need to be adressed, or condemning us, and Hil, for having ideas that are different to yours. The council is where we can discuss the ideas, they don't need to be criticised just for being different.

In a bid to halt the madness, and elephant response team will attempt to restore order.


:ele: :ele: :ele: :ele: :ele:

TL;DR? GO BACK AND READ IT YOU MONSTERS, IT MATTERS!

@Bellz, who posted while I was writing. To your first post, exactly! To the second, oh, OK, I didn't get the phrasing.

[Unibot]

Bullshit Uni.? The future is not Hax and Ant the future is new nations that we get to join the forum.? Yes I am working on my own reform proposal but I keep an open mind and am willing to listen to anything.? If you are going to tell me that we don't need to fix things like our election law and our judiciary you are absolutely insane.? We have three different laws that govern our elections (I originally thought it was 2).? Don't you dare tell me if mind is open or closed because you have no idea what I am thinking.? I like everyone else have a right to propose changes and fixes to the law that does not mean that I am dead set on those specified changes.? I stood against Haxstree's proposal of a kingdom and would more than likely do so today.? Yes I may like others not want to completely blow up the Charter and start from scratch but if people want to propose it then we need to have an open mind and consider it.

I support reforms to the election law and the judiciary, but not Hax or Ant's reforms; any resistance to their ideas has been called out on the BCD as "draconian".

I also don't like your quotations around appointed when discussing Haxstree.? I did what was my given right by the Charter and picked someone for the job that nobody else ran for.? Haxstree got the job in part because he was the only other person who ran for elections and partly because there were not to many other people around to take it.? Carta left the region and we needed someone to fill the position.

"No Minister" would be better than Haxstree. That is why he has consistently lost in elections and continues to alienate members of the cabinet.

I also don't believe it is in the best interest of the region for you to refer to comments in our cabinet area as that is discussion with the cabinet and not with the region.

And I don't think it was in the best interest of the region to appoint someone to cabinet who wants to artificially create a villain for the South Pacific so that we'll hate them and harvest the juices of activity from it. That's the basis of an Orwellian novel not the basis of a sound and just society.

I am not telling people there concerns are invalid I am saying lets not fight over something that makes no sense to fight about.? The old guard vs. new blood is an argument I am not willing to get into.? I am asking everyone to go into this Council with an open mind because that is what we need to do.? Whether we come out as a Dictatorship or a government that resembles the United States is not my choice it is the region as a whole.? One or two people do not decide the direction of the region we do it collectively.

I suspect this Council will be like any of our cabinet meetings: Hax and Ant's Ghost (or in this case, OMIGOD, Ant) harassing everyone to share their opinion. Your comment that "some of us" need to "let go" is insulting when it's taken every ounce of patience to not defer my opinions under the powers of harassment and political manhandling that are invested in Haxstree. I support our civil liberties as a region and I want them to be secured.

[Unibot]

In what possible scenario in the realms of reality could Haxtree and Antariel exert that much control over the Government, Unibot?

It's already happening, their opinions are considered golden in the region. Hile seems to defer to them. Probably because both of them have an incredible ability to spew verbal diarrhea back at you till you just concede or grow old. It's a tiring and miserable state of affairs that two robust politickers can force their change by raw, forceful logorrhea, badgering and bullying.

[Hileville]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' > In what possible scenario in the realms of reality could Haxtree and Antariel exert that much control over the Government, Unibot?

It's already happening, their opinions are considered golden in the region. Hile seems to defer to them. Probably because both of them have an incredible ability to spew verbal diarrhea back at you till you just concede or grow old. It's a tiring and miserable state of affairs that two robust politickers can force their change by raw, forceful logorrhea, badgering and bullying.
</blockquote> Not true by the way.

[Antariel]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' > In what possible scenario in the realms of reality could Haxtree and Antariel exert that much control over the Government, Unibot?

It's already happening, their opinions are considered golden in the region. Hile seems to defer to them. Probably because both of them have an incredible ability to spew verbal diarrhea back at you till you just concede or grow old. It's a tiring and miserable state of affairs that two robust politickers can force their change by raw, forceful logorrhea, badgering and bullying.
</blockquote>
That's the spirit Uni, totally ignore what I have to say and call me names. At least have the common decency to respond to my post. And, notably, when have I 'bullied' anyone?? Take your ridiculous accusations elsewhere, you aren't the God of NS, no matter what you believe, so people can disagree with you; it doesn't make it bullying.

I suppose that this actually violates article 2.2 of the Charter, by the way; though I won't be calling for you to lose your citizenship, largely because I'm not a bully.

And again I ask, what reforms do I stand accused of having asked for? I've not laid out any comprehensive reform ideas because I'm still working on them, I just know we need to do some reform.

Also, 'harassing everyone else to share their opinion' ; what the hell? HOW DARE WE WANT PEOPLE TO PARTICIPATE....

EDIT: And if by 'incredible ability to spew verbal diarrhorea back at you' you mean, reply, that's because some of us are actually very active in the region rather than considering it a distracting sideshow from our pet defender org.