The Great Council 2012

[Hileville]

I have to ask everyone to just cool down a little bit here. There is no reason to keep this figting.

[Antariel]

Apologies; I spent some time on my post, and to have Uni totally ignore it bugged me.

[Sheepa]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' > In what possible scenario in the realms of reality could Haxtree and Antariel exert that much control over the Government, Unibot?

It's already happening, their opinions are considered golden in the region. Hile seems to defer to them. Probably because both of them have an incredible ability to spew verbal diarrhea back at you till you just concede or grow old. It's a tiring and miserable state of affairs that two robust politickers can force their change by raw, forceful logorrhea, badgering and bullying.
</blockquote> 'considered golden' by whom, exactly? Certainly not by me. I judge ideas based in their inherent merits, not on who has suggested them.

Are we talking about opinions or facts here? Because I'm not seeing any evidence of favouritism, unless you can provide it.

Any changes that have a significant impact on the region should be judged and voted on by the region, to prevent the very problem you are suggesting is taking place.

[Antariel]

'considered golden' by whom, exactly? Certainly not by me. I judge ideas based in their inherent merits, not on who has suggested them.

Oh, Sheepy that stung I know what you meant.

It would be delightful to have the influence that is being ascribed to me. Elephans would become mandatory in every post

:ele:

Speaking of which, HIL, make elephants mandatory in every post!
:ele:

[Haxstree]

And I don't think it was in the best interest of the region to appoint someone to cabinet who wants to artificially create a villain for the South Pacific so that we'll hate them and harvest the juices of activity from it. That's the basis of an Orwellian novel not the basis of a sound and just society.

Thank you for misconstruing my post...which is easy to do of course when you are referencing something in a hidden thread. :glare:



I too wish I had the influence Unibot prescribes me.



When he has unilateral power to shut down any law, even when it is written by a person of such <em class='bbc'>great voluminous magnitude</em> like myself, I have to wonder what he is getting so excited about.



The two people he is painting as conspiring to take over everything are:



1. The guy whose reform package he obliterated



2. The guy he banned from holding positions in the cabinet.



This from the guy who is also leading what he describes as the largest defender organization in the game, in which I am his subservient. The guy who got the delegacy of our region gifted to him completely outside of the law, so well connected is he with the defender network that came with the delegates of Topid and Belschaft.



But no. It is I and Ant that are the regional masterminds.







:ele: :ele: :ele:



(elephants mandated by Ant the Cleary Omniscient)



I am not paranoid

[Sheepa]

I think it would be a good idea to discuss the procedure of appointing cabinet members outside of the elections. I think such appointments should at least require a majority vote by the elected cabinet.

[Haxstree]

I think the delegate of the region, who was elected by the region in its entirety, should retain his/her current rights with respect to appointments to vacant positions.

[Sheepa]

I think the delegate of the region, who was elected by the region in its entirety, should retain his/her current rights with respect to appointments to vacant positions.

Which potentially leads to either a poor choice of appointment, or an appointment that the majority of the elected cabinet are against.

It also kind of addresses Unibot's argument of possible favouritism, although I don't really have an opinion on the specific cases he mentioned.

I think it's an entirely sensible idea. What if, hypothetically, the delegate appointed a totally untrustworthy and incompetent cabinet member just because they were good friends? That sounds potentially corrupt to me.

It's perfectly reasonable that a non-elected cabinet member should at least have the confidence of the cabinet. An empty seat is preferable to a complete liability. An elected cabinet member must be judged worthy by every voting citizen of TSP. Why should an appointed cabinet member get a free ticket?

This is a future preventitive measure at best.

[Antariel]

Appointing ministers is a stop-gap when a minister steps down or disappears and we don't have time for elections. Nice to see this has never been a problem for the delegate to do until I am the figure in question Uni, are you going to have the common decency to respond to my post? I assume not at this point.

[Haxstree]

Which potentially leads to either a poor choice of appointment, or an appointment that the majority of the elected cabinet are against.

I'm going to address both of these concerns.

At the first concern, choose your delegate's carefully then. The delegate is elected by the entire region. If you don't have the faith in the position that they can make good appointments, then you shouldn't be trusting them with the controls of the region. Poor choice of appointment is largely subjective. The person responsible for leading the region and who is actually doing the work of governing should be granted leeway in this regard. To ask a delegate to take a vacant seat over his own appointment seems much more a problem with faith in the delegate, rather than a problem with the law. So I echo what Ant said, the ability of the delegate to appoint in times of vacancy is a sound principle. It was only half challenged now by someone who has clear political reasons to be against the power, rather than principled ones. Why you have decided to pick up this mantle Sheepa, I don't understand.

A bigger threat when it comes to people becoming "appointed" is when an appointment comes to resemble an anointment, one with no basis in our own laws. If Unibot or you are going to protest this delegate power, I wonder where you were when Belschaft decided to hand the delegacy of our region to his friend Unibot. Not a vice delegate. Not resign weeks before when it was clear he didn't intend to govern. To ignore such a thing and then come after the legal rights of an elected and already restrained position, is pretty silly to me.

On your second point, I say so what? This is a democracy, it seems odd you would associate a difference of opinion as an inherent negative. Unless we have exchanged banners and the cabinet is meant to be a Krulltopian uniform, I don't see why having some people in the cabinet against an appointment is a bad thing. When you have people that surround themselves with one voice, that is all you get. Personally, I'd appreciate a region not led by a cabinet of nodding heads but of people who will challenge each other.

Lastly, being concerned of "cabinet unity" really seems to lead down a road of the very kind of "favoritism" you say you want to avoid. If someone is appointed because the rest of the cabinet simply likes them, or if that is supposed to be a qualifier, is that not "favoritism"? It seems if you want to end favoritism you'd worry less about the personal meshing of cabinet ministers and be more concerned about their individual qualifications and what each wants for the region.

Unibot is a little low on merit based arguments. His gripe seems to be that he feels he is not being accorded the influence he feels he deserves, and that a pair of saboteurs are controlling the delegate with puppet strings.

We do have a lot to change and discuss in this council. There is a lot that needs fixing without following the prompting of such base and shallow claims. I'd like to focus on the very framework of the Charter and prepare us for growth, rather than inflict more constraints on my delegate simply because he doesn't acquiesce to Unibot's every heed.

[Hileville]

I have made a couple of changes to the Great Council schedule. Starting Wednesday we will begin advertising this event heavily on the RMB and WFE. I am going to gather a few things together tongiht that have been suggested but I believe it is the general consensus to keep this as open as possible for suggestions. I will post the list of everythign that has been talked about thus far tonight.

[Belschaft]

:eyes: Y'know, when I decided to take time off from NS I made it very clear I was planning to come back to TSP when I returned, talking about how I loved the great community I found here back in the summer - which turned out to be a great breath of fresh air at a time when I was growing sick of certain elements of NS. I'm looking around the region right now, and I don't see a shred of that community left, or the friendlessness and light-heartedness it fostered.Edit: Also Anur, that is a fucking low blow and you know it, considering that Hileville - god only knows what he was taking at the time - gave you cabinet access, and therefore you know exactly why I handed over my nation to Unibot.

[Unibot]

[quote name="Haxstree"] [quote name='"Sheepatropolis"] Which potentially leads to either a poor choice of appointment' date=' or an appointment that the majority of the elected cabinet are against. [/quote']

I'm going to address both of these concerns.



At the first concern, choose your delegate's carefully then. The delegate is elected by the entire region. If you don't have the faith in the position that they can make good appointments, then you shouldn't be trusting them with the controls of the region. Poor choice of appointment is largely subjective. The person responsible for leading the region and who is actually doing the work of governing should be granted leeway in this regard. To ask a delegate to take a vacant seat over his own appointment seems much more a problem with faith in the delegate, rather than a problem with the law. So I echo what Ant said, the ability of the delegate to appoint in times of vacancy is a sound principle. It was only half challenged now by someone who has clear political reasons to be against the power, rather than principled ones. Why you have decided to pick up this mantle Sheepa, I don't understand.



A bigger threat when it comes to people becoming "appointed" is when an appointment comes to resemble an anointment, one with no basis in our own laws. If Unibot or you are going to protest this delegate power, I wonder where you were when Belschaft decided to hand the delegacy of our region to his friend Unibot. Not a vice delegate. Not resign weeks before when it was clear he didn't intend to govern. To ignore such a thing and then come after the legal rights of an elected and already restrained position, is pretty silly to me.



On your second point, I say so what? This is a democracy, it seems odd you would associate a difference of opinion as an inherent negative. Unless we have exchanged banners and the cabinet is meant to be a Krulltopian uniform, I don't see why having some people in the cabinet against an appointment is a bad thing. When you have people that surround themselves with one voice, that is all you get. Personally, I'd appreciate a region not led by a cabinet of nodding heads but of people who will challenge each other.



Lastly, being concerned of "cabinet unity" really seems to lead down a road of the very kind of "favoritism" you say you want to avoid. If someone is appointed because the rest of the cabinet simply likes them, or if that is supposed to be a qualifier, is that not "favoritism"? It seems if you want to end favoritism you'd worry less about the personal meshing of cabinet ministers and be more concerned about their individual qualifications and what each wants for the region.



Unibot is a little low on merit based arguments. His gripe seems to be that he feels he is not being accorded the influence he feels he deserves, and that a pair of saboteurs are controlling the delegate with puppet strings.



We do have a lot to change and discuss in this council. There is a lot that needs fixing without following the prompting of such base and shallow claims. I'd like to focus on the very framework of the Charter and prepare us for growth, rather than inflict more constraints on my delegate simply because he doesn't acquiesce to Unibot's every heed. [/quote]

Who the fuck are you? There was like a week left for Belschaft's reign, he gave the nation to the cabinet minister he trusted most. I wouldn't be surprised if you had preferred the region to be vulnerable, but almost everything you say is with some dirty political motive wrapped around in it.



You would prefer a cabinet of nodding heads, but only if they were nodding for you. That's why you bully people into sharing your positions. It's extremely tiring to be in a cabinet with you and it's extremely tiring to be in a region with you. I wouldn't be surprised if your entire residence in this region is a scheme to dissolve the community altogether internally by making it an unpleasant place to be.

[Hileville]

JUST A REMINDER THAT THIS THREAD IS FOR THE DISCUSSION OF AND SUGGESTIONS FOR THE GREAT COUNCIL.Please do not argue over suggestions in this thread. Once the Great Council actually begins there will be plenty of time to discuss these matters. Also please keep the insults to a minimum.----------------------On a side note:If anyone has a complaint about anything that I have done as Delegate please feel free to create a thread in the Delegate's board or you can PM or TG me as well as contacting me on IRC and I will be happy to answer your questions.

[Southern Bellz]

:eyes:

Y'know, when I decided to take time off from NS I made it very clear I was planning to come back to TSP when I returned, talking about how I loved the great community I found here back in the summer - which turned out to be a great breath of fresh air at a time when I was growing sick of certain elements of NS. I'm looking around the region right now, and I don't see a shred of that community left, or the friendlessness and light-heartedness it fostered.

Edit: Also Anur, that is a fucking low blow and you know it, considering that Hileville - god only knows what he was taking at the time - gave you cabinet access, and therefore you know exactly why I handed over my nation to Unibot.

My biggest regret of my time as delegate.

[Hileville]

Moved this topic as the forum is now created for the event.

[Antariel]

...still no response to my post Uni. If you want to PM it to me, that's fine. But I'd appreciate something.

[Belschaft]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' > :eyes:

Y'know, when I decided to take time off from NS I made it very clear I was planning to come back to TSP when I returned, talking about how I loved the great community I found here back in the summer - which turned out to be a great breath of fresh air at a time when I was growing sick of certain elements of NS. I'm looking around the region right now, and I don't see a shred of that community left, or the friendlessness and light-heartedness it fostered.

Edit: Also Anur, that is a fucking low blow and you know it, considering that Hileville - god only knows what he was taking at the time - gave you cabinet access, and therefore you know exactly why I handed over my nation to Unibot.

My biggest regret of my time as delegate.
</blockquote> Hmm?

[Todd McCloud]

Just so we're clear...Some people seem to have chips on their shoulders, judging by some of the things I've heard and read over the past few days. If you have a problem with someone, best to let them know and hash it out that way. Don't have it permeate into something as important as a council to adjust or amend some of our laws.

[Hileville]

Just so we're clear...


Some people seem to have chips on their shoulders, judging by some of the things I've heard and read over the past few days. If you have a problem with someone, best to let them know and hash it out that way. Don't have it permeate into something as important as a council to adjust or amend some of our laws.

Perfectly worded Todd.

I also believe we need to look into whether or not the Delegate should have the right to assume duties of and official that has resigned until the emergency election concludes.

[EtrielDevyt]

I have no idea what's going on, but I'm game for some participation. If I may suggest it, why not have the Region officials, and maybe a few suits, look over the laws & scratch out any conflicting laws forthwith.

[Antariel]

There was an attempt to deal with conflicting laws last year. It got squelched so now we need to try again.

[Haxstree]

Edit: Also Anur, that is a fucking low blow and you know it, considering that Hileville - god only knows what he was taking at the time - gave you cabinet access, and therefore you know exactly why I handed over my nation to Unibot.

No. It explains why you left the delegacy, while also putting your initial run in question.

There are many ways to leave the delegacy. I would think in a region with a charter and clear Vice Delegates, you would have passed power to a Vice Delegate not simply give your nation to someone else.

3. The Vice Delegate may only attempt to overtake the delegate when this is requested by the delegate. The endorsement count of the Vice Delegate must always remain below 95 % of the Delegate

Regarding successions and resignations, in looking at the law it seems that although we have Vice Delegates (and now the Security Council) there is still no explicit guideline in law that makes them the only ones who can replace and inactive or resigning delegate.

Now again, I think a failure of law doesn't mean Bel should have given his nation to Uni. The intent of a Vice Delegate seems to me that Bel clearly should have resigned from the WA and put a Vice Delegate in charge, whether it was mandated or not.

We should mandate this in law however, because right now looking at the law there is nothing explicit enough to prosecute a delegate who simply hands his nation over to another player.

There is only this :

The Delegate cannot surrender the sovereignty of the region to any group or alliance without approval from the region in form of a Cabinet vote.

An individual is not a group or alliance. I think a reform should be made that outlines a delegate can not swap his nation with anyone, and must resign to the Security Council/Vice Delegates. There should also be a reform to allow the SC/VD to overtake the delegate w/o his invitation, if he is inactive an invitation clearly won't be happening.

I would suggest that the VD and SC laws be rewritten and combined into a new law.

[Hileville]

I started making the threads for the Great Council which is set to begin next Monday. If there are any more threads that are needed or that you want please post them here and I will make them.

[Hileville]

Since it is now after 12:00am EST and I don't know what time I will be on later today the Great Council is officially called to order. Please submit your proposals in the proper forum and lets start the discussions.