Admin Team Shakeup

[Hileville]

You're not a dictator, you're a child. After years of working with us, instead of talking privately about an issue, you make a self righteous statement about it.


The fact that every single member of the admin team that you removed has more actions than the one you kept shows how full of crap you are.


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He has also only been an admin for 2 months.  In which time he has been the ONLY admin w/ the exception of Tsu who has actually followed what is going on.  He has an active account on our test forum and has been familiarizing himself with the forum software.  His amount of actions in the time frame that they have been conducted still equates to more than double of what you have done since we moved to this forum.

 

You also still handle NSA maskings which you have been throwing around that you don't.  You have ACP access to handle member maskings.

[Penguin]

Hile I am sensing frustration. Understandable. HOWEVER that does NOT give you the right to do as YOU see fit because you can. News flash Hile, this just in: YOU CAN'T. You are a big promoter of rule following and yet you just broke pies knows how many in an act of what? A hissy fit because you weren't getting what you wanted? If you are so sure that all of your so called requests for help went ignored why not call out and say to the rest of us to throw a fit? Instead of just dumping them, call for it with reasons like you're supposed to. Act like an Admin Hile, not like a six year old who doesn't wanna share his pie

[Southern Bellz]

I've never claimed to be an ideal admin, but I've been in the government 99% of the time and was told by you that you understood my focus.


I found out about this by logging into the admin CP and didn't see the area where I do making.


I have no interest in being an admin and doing anything in a system where major community decisions are unilaterally made by you. Where an attempt to find out why you did something is met with silence and dissenting opinions are met with removal.


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[tsunamy]

I've been trying to stay out of this discussion ... so it's with great hesitation that I'm adding in here.

 

I think the issue isn't with action, per se, but with process. I mean looking at the numbers I haven't done very much more than the other admins. All of us would be willing to do more, if we knew what needed to be done.

 

I'm the first to admit I've been pretty much inactive for a bunch of reasons. And if Hile said "Hey, it looks like you're not having a ton of time/doing much/etc. I'd like to replace you with another admin for [insert reason here]," I'd understand.

 

Likewise, SB, HEM and RT are reasonable people and, I imagine, if the situation was approached in such a fashion, we wouldn't be having the same discussion.

 

However, when a decision is unilateral and immediate, we have these unpleasant circumstances.

 

I guess what I'd ultimately like is more discussion and agreement and less of a winner-take-all scenario.

[Ryccia]

Yeah, well said, Penguin. Bien dicho. Well said.

[Kris Kringle]

I don't want to raise tensions even more, but I'm actually very concerned about this situation. We have seen over the last few weeks or even months a trend where we have one admin making all the big decisions without the apparent input from others in the administration team, despite the fact that the key word here is team. We saw a couple of admins removed without due notification, a citizen banned from this forum without due proces or following established procedures, stripping an admin of his access without consulting the team and now most in the team have seen their access removed, all while we are told that if we don't like it then we can move to another forum. This is not how our region is supposed to be, and it is definitely not how our community is supposed to work.

 

We have been working for so long to make this region a fun and welcoming place, and this pattern of making unilateral decisions regardless of established procedure doesn't help in the least. Like tsu has said, it all comes down to the fact that this forum is part of our community, and we can't be forced out just because we don't agree with the decisions of the one paying for it. We are supposed to be a democracy, and in such a system we don't only expect disagreements, we encourage them to be voiced and appropriately debated. Then we can talk things through and find reasonable solutions to our problems. If Hileville's arguments are true, then I'm sure that we could have come to an agreement with him, perhaps to replace inactive admins with active ones, without imposing that action upon us all. There was no need for this situation, not in the least because it weakens the strength of our community. I ask everyone to consider this.

[Hileville]

Being an admin is not a badge that you get for serving in Government.  This was and still is a very bad way to handle additions to an admin team.  Yes it should be a team function but when members of that team do absolutely nothing to remain a part of that team except get angry when they don't get to give input on the littlest of things.

 

If admin discussions were public (which they aren't for good reason) you would see a history of discussions being posted without any response and then bitching when action is taken.  This predates my becoming an admin and goes back really to the start of the forums.  You have had periods where 1 admin has always ran things.  I'm tired of being that admin and am working towards re-establishing an actual team where discussion happens and people vote when given the opportunity.

 

There is a discussion that has started with the new admin team about establishing a code of conduct and guides for admins and actually having a set of policies which has lacked in TSP forever.  There has been more contribution from the new admin team already than some members that have been removed for the last year.  I can't do this alone and no longer have the time nor desire to fight on every single discussion after the fact.  Yes it did get to the point where I stopped posting discussions because they just were never responded to.

 

There is no way for me to surrender the ROOT account on a self-hosted community.  Whoever holds the passwords to the server is the ROOT admin.  This is not something I am willing to share as I host other websites on our server.  I also don't believe anyone that was removed had the knowledge to actually do anything useful with those passwords.  I can think of two people besides me in this community that can use the command line on a server.

 

I will not hold the database hostage.  I have no desire to fight the masses if a forum move or change is wanted.  The only way to do that change would be to move forums which is why that is an option that I have given several times.  I will not however transfer the IPB license/domain/paid theme/paid add-ons for nothing.

[Rebel-topia]

Most of the time I visit the admin request topic, its usually something thats already been taken care of. And since I was made an admin because Hile and Bels were the only active admins, and I handled all the security checks for citizenship for almost 2 months. I had tried to contact Hile and Bels to teach me some of the ins and outs of the admin system, and neither of them really had the time. I told hile before he even purchased the domain that, if needed, Id like to help pay for it. That request, too, went unanswered.

[Vibrant Coconuts]

Can I ask something? What is the implication of all of this for the mere users of the forum? I'm sorry if some people are annoyed they are removed as admin, or other people are annoyed for their friends, but all of that seems like so much eh from down here in the peanut gallery. But the amount of outrage it is causing seems to indicate something bigger is going on. So, should forum users be concerned (about either of the parties), or this largely a pissing contest among the inner circle that doesn't really affect us mortals?

[Cormac]

The inactivity argument is absurd, so just drop it. DM has twelve admin actions. Twelve. Don't pretend this is anything but his reward for not being active enough to oppose your removal of Belschaft.

 

Tell me, Hileville: Belschaft has 235 admin actions, second only to you. So why was he removed?

[Hileville]

The inactivity argument is absurd, so just drop it. DM has twelve admin actions. Twelve. Don't pretend this isn't anything but his reward for not being active enough to oppose your removal of Belschaft.

 

Tell me, Hileville: Belschaft has 235 admin actions, second only to you. So why was he removed?

I will not divulge that information publicly out of respect for the parties involved.

[Belschaft]

Ok, let's go through this section by section

 

Here is the list of admin action count on these forums.  This includes everyone who has at some point had access to the ACP.

 

admin_actions.png 

Hileville - 3046 actions taken

Belschaft - 235 actions taken

Carta - 85 actions taken

Eluvatar - 56 actions taken

tsunamy - 40 actions taken (tsu is also being returned to admin status)

rebeltopia - 31 actions taken

Southern Bellz - 28 actions taken

HEM - 20 actions taken

Drugged Monkeys - 12 actions taken (DM has been very active on our test forum learning the forum software and how to do more technical level things)

Tsrill - 2 actiosn taken

Todd - 2 actions taken

raw - 1 action taken (wrote the throwback theme which was paid for)

Fudgie - 1 action taken

 

Rebeltopia was removed as his only actions since 24th of November 2013 were to mask the recent additions to the CSS.

Tsu has been restored so I will not get into detail there.  I will say that he did offer to help more which I missed.

 

To start with, this is grossly misleading for several incredibly simple reasons. Firstly, a huge number of your ACP actions consist of technical changes that the rest of the admin is unable to make for both technical and physical reasons. You have by far the best tech skills of the entire admin team, and much of what is required to be done no one else knows how to do. The logical solution to that issue is to bring someone into the admin team who does have the tech skills required, which is why adding Glen to the team makes so much sense, and why his addition as a Content Admin received no objections, despite being a case of unilateral action. There is also the fact that there are many things that only you as root admin and host can do; what percentage of your actions consists of changes only you could make?

 

Further, and as to the issue of admins not doing enough work, literally every other member of the admin team has made it clear that you have made no genuine attempt to raise this issue. Unless you wish to maintain that we are all lying, then you cannot reasonably complain on these grounds; if you want people to take over more work, you should have contacted them, explained what needed doing, and taught them how to do it. This did not occur.

 

 

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Further, Bel was informed of the basic reasons as to why he was removed on the March 15.  This resulted in a few back and forth messages about him telling me how wrong I was and he doesn't recognize my authority as an admin.

 

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Now, let us flesh out this timeline a bit. You removed me as an admin on March 4th. You did not provide any explanation to a single member of the admin team until March 15th, eleven days later. This explanation was only provided after half a dozen requests for such on my part, as well as multiple requests by other admins. The explanation you did provide was deemed grossly and entirely inadequate by the entirety of the admin team other than yourself, as you were informed. The next time you shared information was on the 19th; this consisted of the simple declaration that no further explanation was to be provided, that your decision was final, that the admin team was forbidden from discussing the matter with me, and that no vote on the matter would be allowed. Needless to say, every single part of this is contrary to normal procedure within the admin team. You were then informed that your prohibitions would be ignored, that the admin team did not recognize your right to take such unilateral action, and that the admin team would continue to deal with the matter.

 

Less than 48 hours later every single member of the admin team who objected to your actions had been removed.

 

There is something called the causal chain of events. Every action ultimately follows on from a previous action in a linear pattern. Now, it is possible that this is simply a coincidence, and that your actions genuinely were as a result of inactivity in the admin team. There is also the possibility that this is not the case, and as the rest of the admin team maintains they were the result of the opposition of the admin team to your prior actions. Considering a number of factors - who precisely was removed as admins, when the actions occurred, the fact that there was no prior issue regarding activity raised, that the actions were taken unilaterally and without warning, etc - it is incredibly obvious which one of these possibilities is the probability.

 

To put it simply, no one here is an idiot and we can all look at what happened and when it happened and realize that you are lying to us.

 

More broadly speaking, there is the issue of procedure. You are root admin of these forums; you are not the owner of these forums. These forums are owned by the community. The procedure regarding administrative actions is very simple, and you are well aware of what it is. Not only have you ignored it, you have willfully and actively obstructed it. This is unacceptable. No one here recognizes your asserted right to take unilateral action. You are aware of this; you have just removed multiple people from the admin team for making such clear to you.

 

<div>
Looking back at the wording of my original post here I didn't mean for the move forums line to come out that way.  If the community does not like this decision I can understand that.  However, I will not continue to work with the individuals who were removed.  They have done nothing to help take admin tasks off of me and share the workload.  They do not respond to threads encouraging them to use our test forum to play around in.  I have had conversations in which I have asked what they actually wanted to do and learn how to do.  They usually ended with no response.  You can paint me as a rogue admin or a dictator or whatever you want.

 

</div>
Let me put it bluntly; the community does not like this decision. The community is not willing to accept this decision. Your constant threats that if we don't like what you do we can find a new set of forums have got old, and to put it frankly, many of us are inclined to take you up on it.

 

I firmly suggest that you hand over the root account to another member of the admin team - I would suggest Tsunamy - so we may begin that process. I and many others in this region have lost all faith in you as root admin.

[Ryccia]

Yeah, DM is usually inactive so why the others were removed?

[Belschaft]

 

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Cormac" data-cid="121437" data-time="1395418695">
<div>
The inactivity argument is absurd, so just drop it. DM has twelve admin actions. Twelve. Don't pretend this isn't anything but his reward for not being active enough to oppose your removal of Belschaft.

 

Tell me, Hileville: Belschaft has 235 admin actions, second only to you. So why was he removed?

I will not divulge that information publicly out of respect for the parties involved.

 

</div>
</blockquote>
You will not divulge that information privately, either, to myself or any other member of the admin team. So this is simply bollocks.

[Hileville]

There is no way for me to surrender the ROOT account on a self-hosted community.  Whoever holds the passwords to the server is the ROOT admin.  This is not something I am willing to share as I host other websites on our server.  I also don't believe anyone that was removed had the knowledge to actually do anything useful with those passwords.  I can think of two people besides me in this community that can use the command line on a server.

 

QUOTED FOR THOSE WHO DIDN'T READ IT THE FIRST TIME.

[tsunamy]

Can I ask something? What is the implication of all of this for the mere users of the forum? I'm sorry if some people are annoyed they are removed as admin, or other people are annoyed for their friends, but all of that seems like so much eh from down here in the peanut gallery. But the amount of outrage it is causing seems to indicate something bigger is going on. So, should forum users be concerned (about either of the parties), or this largely a pissing contest among the inner circle that doesn't really affect us mortals?

 

So this doesn't get lost -- there's not a ton of affect to other users atm. Technically the admins oversee masking and membership so the concern would be if admins are overstepping their boundaries ... ie banning members from the forums.

[Ryccia]

I think Hile is hiding something. If he dosen't release that info. people get suspicious.

[Belschaft]

 

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Hileville" data-cid="121428" data-time="1395417595">
<div>
There is no way for me to surrender the ROOT account on a self-hosted community.  Whoever holds the passwords to the server is the ROOT admin.  This is not something I am willing to share as I host other websites on our server.  I also don't believe anyone that was removed had the knowledge to actually do anything useful with those passwords.  I can think of two people besides me in this community that can use the command line on a server.

 

QUOTED FOR THOSE WHO DIDN'T READ IT THE FIRST TIME.

 

</div>
</blockquote>
Then hand over the database instead, as you said is technically feasible.

[Hileville]

 

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Hileville" data-cid="121442" data-time="1395418939">
<div>
 

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Hileville" data-cid="121428" data-time="1395417595">
<div>
There is no way for me to surrender the ROOT account on a self-hosted community.  Whoever holds the passwords to the server is the ROOT admin.  This is not something I am willing to share as I host other websites on our server.  I also don't believe anyone that was removed had the knowledge to actually do anything useful with those passwords.  I can think of two people besides me in this community that can use the command line on a server.

 

QUOTED FOR THOSE WHO DIDN'T READ IT THE FIRST TIME.

 

</div>
</blockquote>
Then hand over the database instead, as you said is technically feasible.

 

</div>
</blockquote>
In order to hand over the database so it is 100% current all posting will need to be disabled on this forum.  If you wish to move forums I would suggest initiating that process first so an accurate backup can be given.

[Southern Bellz]

Honestly, as a whole, Hile has done a great job with these forums, and this issue can be resolved. He does a great job with how the forum looks and runs, and I think GR will help make it better. A lot of it is thankless work too.


I think the idea that Hile is arguing that admins he removed would just bitch about decisions that he made after trying hard to discuss them is just false.


The only events I ever had issues with was Unibots banning and Bels removal of admin. Both decisions made without any other admin input.


It's a false narrative, and I think the community wants a banning via admins to be properly discussed. I'm sure Unibot appreciates the efforts of the removed admins.


Without us, we'd have a community member banned with no discussion.


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[Escade]

I think Hile has given reasons for what he's doing. Maybe he made a mistake with Tsu and another person but otherwise he's given a list of actions taken by the admins that show inactivity. Administrator is not a plum position given as some sort of sinecure. It does not require hand holding or cajoling people to take actions. I may not know the technical details but if a government position was inactive we would recall them. 

 

I may have particular things to add but I am loathe to fuel the drama and the people who salivate at it for now.  For example, like one administrator who had the gall to PM me about something I said in a private area about his lack of activity but not the interest in taking more then a minimum number of actions.  So get of your high horse. 

 

Oh and when I brought up the forum administration issue many of these same people speaking out accused me of all sorts of nonsense.  The irony is that now that he isn't playing to your tune, it's suddenly somehow an issue ?


 Raven's discussion here is the most sensible thing that I've seen.


Again, this community is not made up of five people or the admin team. There are several of us with something to say so before anyone considers removing Hileville they better be sure that the entire community has had their say. 

[Belschaft]

The options Hileville has provided us with are 1; do as he tells us 2; move forums. There is no other alternative he is willing to contemplate.

[Southern Bellz]

Escade.....? You think that removing the entire admin team without Hile even telling us something is wrong after years of working together is the right way to handle something?


Come on.


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[Ryccia]

Escade... Aw, well, is her opinion, not mine.

[Escade]

No, SB. I don't agree with that at all. You know that because in every PM I've said, "Let's talk\discuss\vote."


Whenever I brought it up the same people advocating against it now attacked me for it.  So what has changed particularly? Please explain to me from your perspective since I don't know what goes on in Administration behind the scenes.