A Message regarding Unibot and the Future

[Kris Kringle]

I think it all comes down to whether proper moderation procedures were followed, instead of the easy way of "it was long overdue". It may or may not have been, but we have procedures for a reason. Otherwise, why not change our moderation policies to "forum administration will decide when and if members are to be banned"?

[Hileville]

Quite frankly, I don't care how well this bodes.  This was a decision that needed to be made and has been made.

 

I made this decision after viewing his moderation record (which will remain only viewable to mods) and posts on these forums only.  Nothing that was said in TEP was considered when I made the decision.  I reached the decision prior to even reading the latest posts in TEP but did not put it into place until later in the day when I had extra time.

 

I understand the frustration some of you have with this decision.  I am not going to explain every step that I took in making this decision.  Unibot was banned and his banning is currently set for an indefinite period.  The administration team will be discussing the ban and how long it will be enforced over the coming days.

 

EDIT:  This thread has been moved to a forum only visible to citizens.

[Farengeto]

As CJ I can see the Moderator logs and I can confirm Unibot had been banned for 24 hours on March 14th, 2013

[Sandaoguo]

I think it's important for the forum administration to work with the government. If we want something explained, it should be explained. I know that Hileville feels this was the right decision, but the relationship between regional leadership and forum administration needs to be good, not antagonistic. Stonewalling and refusing reasonable requests for information can threaten to breakdown that relationship.

 

I don't think those asking for information are seeking some kind of smoking gun to get the ban reversed, or to make the forum administration look bad. It's about making sure procedure was followed and having good communication and transparency when these decisions are made. Nobody likes being left out important decisions and discussions, especially when they have a reasonable expectation to be included.

[Punk D]

I agree with Sandaoguo.

 

Also, knowing Unibot did go through a 24 hour ban in 2013 also helps. 

[Kris Kringle]

Unibot had indeed been previously banned. I honestly don't think that ban was made in compliance with moderation policies, specifically since the warning point he got did not deserve a ban, even a 24 hours one. That said, I am very concerned at how Hileville is now saying he doesn't care about how we react at this turn of events. If he did this for our community's sake, then isn't it natural to know what the community thinks of it? This forum is not just property, it is a place where we as a region interact, and if people can't know when or if they will be banned, then I'm not sure where this little experiment called the South Pacific will end up. Further, we have moderation policies that have not been followed. Unless I'm missing something, Unibot was not given warning points and people that also committed offenses in some discussions for which he received informal warnings were not deal with. So, is this just about Unibot himself? If not, then why are we not following official moderation procedures?

[Escade]

Meeting with admin team and government officials to discuss how to work out the slippery slope between forum moderation and the rights of citizens? Nope, didn't happen.

 

Revision, implementation, or official enforcement of the moderation policies for all users involved? Nope, didn't happen. 

[Hileville]

Meeting with admin team and government officials to discuss how to work out the slippery slope between forum moderation and the rights of citizens? Nope, didn't happen.

 

Revision, implementation, or official enforcement of the moderation policies for all users involved? Nope, didn't happen. 

I have made myself available multiple times to set up a meeting.  You have never done so.  I approached you on IRC last night and you didn't answer (assumably because you weren't on).  I walked Kris through the process and agreed there are things that need to be worked out in a meeting.  The current moderation policies are outdated and old and this is known.  I have held off on creating new ones in order for a meeting to take place between us.  I am pretty much free this upcoming week for that meeting.  The ball is in your court to set a date and time.  If it doesn't happen I as owner of the boards will be changing the mod policies.

 

Don't you dare have an attitude towards me when I have tried to rectify the situation.  The last time I brought it up to you all you did was tell me how Kris wants to be an admin and I should make him one.  Don't think I am not aware of discussions that have taken place about moving forums either.  I am.  If that is what you and Kris want to do I am more than happy to provide a DB backup as I get no pleasure for dishing out money to host these boards and pay for the software.

 

EDIT:  I will also add Unibot is permitted to appeal this ban and he has been made aware of that.

[Kris Kringle]

I haven't fully read the latest posts, but I thought it was obvious I was joking about being an admin. If that wasn't the case, I want to make it clear. I am more than happy with my current job, and my priority is serving this region, not myself.

 

Edit: Now I have read the latest posts. I seriously advice against fighting amongst ourselves. True enough there hasn't been a meeting to discuss moderation policies. I don't blame anyone against that, and understand that we all have different priorities, both in NationStates and in real life. The damage has been already done, so there's no use at pointing fingers. What we can do now is take this as an opportunity to have this meeting, engage in an honest and civilised discussion and leave the region something positive out of it.

[Rebel-topia]

I have very similar concerns to the ones Kris has. Bel was able to indulge a little bit last night, but I'm still curious why it was yesterday he got banned and not the month before. I noticed that Hile, Bel, and Rebel were reading the thread in the Magisterium regarding the TCEP-TSP treaty about a half hour prior to Unibot being banned. Did his posts there some how affect his status here?

 

If I may add... If Prussia is referring to me, That information is completely false. I do not, and never have had an account in TEP.

 

 

On the banning: I stand behind Hile on this. Unibot has done nothing but stir up trouble here since "coming out of retirement"... and long before that. I had pushed for him to receive warning points and a ban a few months ago. Many on the admin team said he should get a formal warning and one last chance. He has since received many chances without admin intervention. This ban has come not a day too soon.

[Lord Ravenclaw]

Well after the shitstorm I met with in TEP and their irc channel, you can ban him permanently and throw his in character self into the darkest, deepest and dankest cell the region has for all I care.

 

The amount of shit he and his ilk are putting TEPs delegate through over his petty and shitty little pissant tantrum is beyond a sodding joke and I am getting sick of watching it.

 

Apologies for the language, I feel legitimately infuriated on behalf of a fellow GCR delegate.

[Belschaft]

Can you post the logs please Raven?

[Lord Ravenclaw]

I'll be posting everything I have to Hile later Bel.

 

Oh, I've ordered all free Osiran Legionnaires to reinforce the garrison in St Abbadon. There will be consequences for tonight.

[Escade]

This is not the first discussion we have had on moderation and government.  Here is the original discussion.

 

From what I understand the moderation is a team, not one particular person. I'd like to know the names of all the moderation\administration team members and arrange a meeting.  Trying to find me on IRC is not difficult, nor is setting up a meeting since guess what even if I'm not on, I still get messages. However, there is also the more easier way to contact me: TGs or PMs or just a public post, fyi. I personally prefer meetings on Skype because unlike IRC there aren't technical difficulties. 

 

From the PM discussion that we are waiting to release, many of the admin team were not even aware of the unilateral decision taken.  From that conversation the last discussion was to enforce the current policies (the point system) outlined and try it out for some time. 

 

Hileville, the number of people who threaten to quit\resign\give up has become water under the bridge.  You pay to host the servers, its a service you provide of your own volition - however, it does not mean you can take unilateral decisions that affect the governance of TSP.  Owning the forums does not mean owning TSP.

 

Put down a date\time you are available on Skype and I'll be there along with anyone else from the cabinet and admin team that can make it. 

[Cassius]

Well after the shitstorm I met with in TEP and their irc channel, you can ban him permanently and throw his in character self into the darkest, deepest and dankest cell the region has for all I care.

 

The amount of shit he and his ilk are putting TEPs delegate through over his petty and shitty little pissant tantrum is beyond a sodding joke and I am getting sick of watching it.

 

Apologies for the language, I feel legitimately infuriated on behalf of a fellow GCR delegate.

 

 

Following on from the above, frankly, I do not see how this is an concern of TEPs at all. It is entirely an internal matter, and I find it somewhat inappropriate that Prussia was demanding anything from our admin team at all in this thread.

[Punk D]

Let's not kid ourselves to think that banning a member of another region would have zero effect upon negotiations with that region.

 

Back in late 2010, after I became delegate in TWP, I unsuccessfully tried to serve as ambassador in TSP even though I was banned from these forums at the time. I will tell you that the good people of TWP were none too happy that I was unable to speak here. That may put it mildly, but later in 2011 when we discussed going to war with TSP, I don't think there were many who hesitated & I would not doubt the lack of being able to talk in TWP's embassy had a little to do with their comfort in toppling the regime at the time. 

 

I say this not to dredge up old things, but actions have consequences, intended or otherwise. I'm not suggesting that the admin team - feeling unibot was breaking forum rules -  should have allowed unibot free reign because he is a member of a region we're in negotiations with. No, all I am saying is that it would be naive to think that there wouldn't be repercussions stemming from his banning with our would-be ally.

[Belschaft]

Was Unibot present in TSP as a TEP Magister? I was under the impression that he was a citizen of The South Pacific - not a loyal one, but nevertheless a citizen.


Unibot is also a citizen of TRR, TP... How many other places? Do they all get a say in our internal affairs now? The answer is, of course, no. TSP's internal affairs are the concern of exactly one region. This one.

[Sandaoguo]

For what it's worth: Negotiations haven't been harmed. Unibot was relieved as an ambassador in TEP independently of his ban on these forums. He was not part of negotiations at all, anyways. The opposition bloc in TEP was always opposed to the treaty because they don't see TSP as a good ally, regardless of what the treaty would say.


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[Belschaft]

Me and Glen have had plenty of disputes over the last year or so, and we still have our differences, but he's more than proved that his loyalty lies with TSP. A TEP-TSP alliance is fundamentally in the interests of both our regions, and we should trust in the Minister of Foreign Affairs to handle this bump in the road, and work with the TEP's government to get the treaty passed by both the Assembly and the Magisterium.

[Hileville]

After an extensive discussion by the admin team a vote was taken on whether to continue the ban of Unibot following his appeal to the Admin team.  The admin team has decided with a vote of 4-3 in favor of revoking the ban.  Let this ban serve as the FINAL WARNING to Unibot about his behavior.  If he ammasses an additional warning by Admin/GM team he will be PERMANENTLY banned from these forums.

 

The admin team is in agreement that the behavior shown by Unibot is damaging to this community and will not be permitted to stand any longer.  We cannot be anymore clear that this is the <b>LAST CHANCE </b>for redemption.  I highly suggest Unibot learn from his many mistakes and begin to correct his behavior on these boards.

[Lord Ravenclaw]

How, unfortunate. Far too forgiving.

[HEM]

How, unfortunate. Far too forgiving.

 

The decision had nothing to do with forgiveness.

[Kris Kringle]

[quote name="Raven" post="117698" timestamp="1392992767"]How, unfortunate. Far too forgiving.[/quote]

I obviously didn't participate in the discussion, but I'm pretty sure this isn't about forgiveness as much as it is about following the proper procedures. Let's remember this in the end isn't just about Unibot, it's about how we give people the appropriate opportunities before acting on their conduct.

[Belschaft]

 

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Raven" data-cid="117698" data-time="1392992767">
How, unfortunate. Far too forgiving.

I obviously didn't participate in the discussion, but I'm pretty sure this isn't about forgiveness as much as it is about following the proper procedures. Let's remember this in the end isn't just about Unibot, it's about how we give people the appropriate opportunities before acting on their conduct.
 


</blockquote>
Entirely correct. Unibot's appeal was upheld due to the failure to follow procedure, not due the admin team judging his actions as not meriting action.

[Punk D]

 

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Raven" data-cid="117698" data-time="1392992767">
How, unfortunate. Far too forgiving.

I obviously didn't participate in the discussion, but I'm pretty sure this isn't about forgiveness as much as it is about following the proper procedures. Let's remember this in the end isn't just about Unibot, it's about how we give people the appropriate opportunities before acting on their conduct.
 


</blockquote>
I agree with this.