Intel from TWP's next delegate

[Belschaft]

Hi Belschaft,



If all goes well, you and I will both be Delegates soon. so, as an act of good faith, I bring this to you. please keep this between us if you would like to to get to the

bottom of it. I will be willing to play along with this, and tell you what I hear, in the hope that doing so will lead to friendship, cooperation, and mutual profit for the both of our regions if that is what you would like, and to keep your region safe. I believe that Frak is a puppet for someone else, and no doubt you already know that there is a plot, but perhaps we can learn the other players if we play along.



If you are not interested, neither am I, and I will simply decline.



(I got a message of congratulations from him, and I mentioned that I was never a fan of the war with TSP. This is how he responded.(Last Night) quote:



You are misinformed, I am an enemy of the South Pacific's current government ("the South" as you say).



I appreciate what you say, but in NationStates trying to generate action by making peace is a contradiction.



I did not support Punk's war either, although we share the same enemy. His war was nothing but a stunt, and in that it was wrong. But war with the South Pacific is not wrong for the West Pacific. Peace gets you nothing.



If you wish to sustain yourself as delegate by more than the mere ignorance of your endorsers and the weakness of any internal opponents, you'll see that war could be the answer. Of course, a loud, obnoxious declaration of war is not the way to go.



I currently have an operation in place that will be attacking the delegacy of Belschaft at the best opportunity. While at this point I feel taking the delegacy to be achievable by my team alone, holding it will be another matter. You could help me there. It could be done openly, which while politically risky would earn you historical prestige. Or covertly, which will allow you political safety and the same prestige, only delayed.



All of this is rather silly right now though. We need to really talk.

If you are interested, add me on MSN at <!-- e -->frak123@live.com<!-- e --> (end quote)



Again, anyone who would reach out to a stranger with something like this has little chance of success, but you never know, and I will do anything I can to help prevent this plot if you feel that it is worth our time. If we are elected, I want to find the things that are important to the both of our regions, and find a way to work together on them. Please let me know what you would like me to do, and keep this between us until we decide.



I'll be around,

Enlightened Defenders

Greetings Belschaft,



a peace offering from TWP! In this mail you will find all that you need to do to keep this from happening. fudge is the key, you should allow him more endos, and if possible, select another guardian to sit with endos just under yours along with fudgie. believe it or not, PD helped me to crack him. he is not all bad.



I have an anti nazi pact that I would like you to look at, seems we both have the same problem with them. get with me!



loyally, ED



I plan to continue to play along, and will let you know if I hear anything else. when he is ready to strike, I hope I am aware and can send you proper warning.



and remember, that everything I said to him is total BS, and if it is possible to deal with this quietly, that would be best for me, but if not, I am not afraid to stand with you.



(9:52:04 PM) <!-- e -->frak123@live.com<!-- e --> is now known as Frak.



(10:14:35 PM) Frak: peek a boo

(10:15:23 PM) ED: greetings.

(10:16:06 PM) Frak: Who is this?

(10:16:28 PM) ED: ED of TWP you sent me a mail

(10:16:36 PM) Frak: Ah!

(10:16:37 PM) Frak: Hi

(10:16:49 PM) ED: hi,

(10:17:02 PM) ED: so, what did you want to say.

(10:17:15 PM) Frak: Well basically

(10:17:32 PM) Frak: PD's war was nonsense, that is agreed upon everywhere

(10:17:42 PM) Frak: That does not mean however, that war with TSP is nonsense

(10:18:20 PM) Frak: I am currently organizing to take the delegacy, and we can have success

(10:18:46 PM) Frak: I don't mean a PR nonsense war, I mean I have people in place, right now. To take the delegacy.

(10:19:22 PM) Frak: Of course, even with people in place. It isn't easy.

(10:20:00 PM) Frak: TWP's help would be appreciated in many ways. And if you helped us reach the delegacy, it would be a historical accomplishment for you.

(10:20:26 PM) Frak: It's been a long time since one feeder got close to really invading another.

(10:21:43 PM) ED: I see. I am a game player though, not in an RP sense, I don't care about condemns, and such, If I did this, how could you help me in a way that will give me power power to play?

(10:22:36 PM) Frak: An excellent question

(10:22:46 PM) Frak: Hold on for a second

(10:23:02 PM) Frak: I will answer your question, just need to do something quick

(10:24:23 PM) Frak: Would you mind if Punk joined this conversation? I've gotten his MSN address, if no it's not a problem.

(10:25:45 PM) ED: I'd rather keep this between us, until I hear more about it, I hope you understand, but I need to know a couple of things, like how much support do you have? do you have any insiders? is one of the current candidates in on it that we could sway the election?

(10:27:00 PM) ED: besides, I don't think you could trust PD with this.

(10:27:11 PM) Frak: PD hates the TSP forum

(10:27:48 PM) ED: it's your call.

(10:28:09 PM) Frak: Actually, I'll talk to you first

(10:28:13 PM) Frak: See what you think

(10:28:16 PM) Frak: And then bring in Punk

(10:28:23 PM) Frak: Now let me finally go after your question

(10:28:36 PM) Frak: I'm not an RPer. First of all, this is a very GP op

(10:28:46 PM) Frak: It is all about endorsements and influence

(10:29:00 PM) Frak: Second, having a hand in -two- feeders provides ample GP

(10:29:18 PM) Frak: We would set up an army in TSP as a fast priority to solidify our ID and protect ourselves

(10:29:29 PM) Frak: Thirdly, my job right now is kicking Belschaft's ass out of the delegacy

(10:29:43 PM) Frak: What the new TSP would actually look like is very much out in the air right now.

(10:30:02 PM) Frak: Get involved in booting him out, and you can your TWP people can have a large hand in what TSP looks like

(10:30:49 PM) Frak: If you understand, I am very much the general in this campaign. With the powre of TWP delegacy and the people around you, you would be positioned to control the after.

(10:31:19 PM) Frak: Any delegate bold enough to commit to this campaign would be worthy in my eyes of taking over large powers and responsibilites in the new TSP.

(10:32:21 PM) ED: you have been raising a lot of hell on the RMB, how many people about do you have? it is gonna take a lot you know.

(10:32:57 PM) Frak: We have enough

(10:33:17 PM) Frak: What do you want? Our battle plan?

(10:34:16 PM) ED: you have to understand, I am rolling the dice on this, and if it fails, that is trouble for me, so I don;t need exacts, just round estimates, I have a lot ridning on this, but if it adds up, I think we cn work something out.

(10:34:46 PM) Frak: Well to be clear, you'd probably want any WAs injecting in TSP to support us not to carry TWP's banner upfront at the start

(10:34:52 PM) Frak: That will be bad PR

(10:35:04 PM) Frak: Second, we have 4 WAs in the region

(10:35:08 PM) Frak: High Counts

(10:35:16 PM) Frak: Equal or more influence to Bel

(10:35:24 PM) Frak: We have an unendo campaign on Fudgie ready to go out

(10:35:37 PM) Frak: We have support of other GP groups

(10:35:50 PM) Frak: We need WAs to help us over the top

(10:36:00 PM) Frak: Belschaft is new, he won't be able to eject all of us

(10:36:22 PM) ED: what about gaurdians?

(10:36:36 PM) Frak: what?

(10:36:54 PM) ED: old delegates that hold endos for safety. do they have any?

(10:37:06 PM) Frak: Yes, Fudgie and that is it

(10:37:16 PM) Frak: As I said, she is to be taken care of with an unedo campaign

(10:37:41 PM) Frak: When we bumrush after she is hit with this, our people will surpass her as the second most endorsed in the region

(10:37:49 PM) Frak: Belschaft's influence will break, he won't be able to resign to her

(10:37:57 PM) Frak: That's were you come in

(10:38:03 PM) Frak: Push us over Fudgie at the right time

(10:38:11 PM) Frak: Belschaft can't eject us

(10:38:27 PM) Frak: Then we march into the delegacy

(10:38:41 PM) Frak: And of course, every day Belschaft becomes delegate it becomes harder to do

(10:38:46 PM) Frak: Because his influence will grow

(10:39:07 PM) Frak: Right now our guys are about equal to him

(10:40:12 PM) ED: indeed. that part sounds good, I worry about the endos, do you have any one else to run interfere? like non was, or poeople of high esteem in the forums?

(10:40:36 PM) Frak: you mean PR concerns?

(10:41:11 PM) ED: no, I mean just to get support for you guy after this goes down.

(10:41:32 PM) ED: my people would not stay forever.

(10:42:00 PM) Frak: that's right, we are working on that. I am confident though once we are in the delegacy they will switch

(10:42:19 PM) Frak: A lot of people want to ditch the weak TSP forums, but are too afraid to say it while they are still in power

(10:42:27 PM) Frak: We have been talking to forum people, and they are open.

(10:43:27 PM) ED: good, what about this election? do you have another horse in the race besides belschaft?

(10:43:43 PM) Frak: First of all, the election is over

(10:43:48 PM) Frak: Belschaft will win tomorrow

(10:43:50 PM) Frak:

(10:43:57 PM) ED: ah. I see.

(10:43:59 PM) Frak: He is the target

(10:44:12 PM) Frak: Weak influence, the best chance we have to attack

(10:44:40 PM) Frak: Basically, I am asking you to pledge covert TWP WAs, or hell they don't have to be covert but it would help

(10:44:47 PM) Frak: To endorse our points

(10:45:43 PM) ED: wedo not have a real army at this point, so I would have to ask strangers, only PD wanted this war really, and the ones that did will not fight. so that leaves the nameless that are endoing me.

(10:46:00 PM) ED: I can dig a bit, softly, and see what I dig up.

(10:46:09 PM) Frak: Er

(10:46:14 PM) Frak: I thought you had an army

(10:46:24 PM) Frak: Or at least people you could call on, not random people

(10:46:43 PM) Frak: I guess you could try that, but such people would be very unreliable. And we could have a leak.

(10:46:58 PM) ED: if all you have is 4, that is an issue, I could not get enough safely unless you have more people than that.

(10:47:15 PM) ED: or a powerful TSP person to help you.

(10:47:19 PM) Frak: 4 is a massive amount for this kind of thing

(10:51:00 PM) ED: I'll look around

(10:51:04 PM) Frak: and ED, remember to keep this tight

(10:51:11 PM) Frak: A leak will kill us

(10:51:28 PM) Frak: I'd rather have you have very little trusted people than try too hard and get a leak

(10:52:02 PM) Frak: You can throw in more WAs openly as reinforcements, but as this stage, we need to make sure things stay secret or TSP will have the upper hand.

(10:52:30 PM) ED: how much support does bels have in TSP? how many of the higher ups like him?

(10:52:54 PM) Frak: a decent ammount. But again, the only one that matters is Fudgie.

(10:52:59 PM) Frak: The rest can only PR

(10:53:11 PM) Frak: Only Fudgie has a high endo count, and she can be unendorsed

(10:53:23 PM) Frak: SB isn't WAed in the region

(10:53:29 PM) Frak: and Tsrill has a low count

(10:53:50 PM) ED: sounds like a good chance of this working.

(10:54:05 PM) Frak: there is

(10:54:26 PM) Frak: I don't want to get ahead of myself, but it could be pretty awesome.

(10:54:35 PM) ED: I'll talk to some of my buddies form other regions, and ask them to let me bum some of there people.

(10:54:49 PM) Frak: okay, just don't say what it is for lol

(10:54:59 PM) Frak: just try to see if you can loan some WAs I guess

(10:55:09 PM) Frak: and remember, this is all about timing

(10:55:29 PM) Frak: We want to hit Bel/Fudgie no later than early next week

(10:55:36 PM) Frak: Or Belschaft's influence will get too high

(10:56:00 PM) ED: you are not the only one with an op in TSP right now I heard.

(10:56:31 PM) Frak: ...oh really?

(10:56:47 PM) ED: raider group, maybe you should get a hold of them.

(10:57:20 PM) ED: think about it, and let me know if you want that, I think I know who it is.

(10:57:39 PM) Frak: how can I get a hold of them if I don't know who they are?

(10:57:43 PM) Frak: who do you think they are?

(10:57:52 PM) Frak: and btw, I'm monitoring TSP's endos

(10:58:08 PM) Frak: If anyone has an OP there, they don't have a high endos

(10:58:14 PM) Frak: So I kind of doubt it

(10:58:38 PM) ED: maybe not, I hear rumors, and the ones that I like I investigate.

(10:58:59 PM) Frak: well looking at the endos, somebody may be BSing you

(10:59:07 PM) Frak: and I never said I didn't have raiders on my side

(10:59:30 PM) ED: oh, well that changes things. a whole group?

(10:59:44 PM) Frak: you are very curious

(11:00:04 PM) Frak: Not a whole group, as that would risk a leak

(11:00:11 PM) ED: I like percentiges of sucess, that is how I see the world

(11:00:16 PM) Frak: But we have people. I'm not messing around with you

(11:00:21 PM) Frak: We have a damn good plan

(11:00:29 PM) ED: good enough.

(11:00:41 PM) Frak: So

(11:00:50 PM) Frak: look for some WAs

(11:01:02 PM) Frak: keep the reason secret

(11:01:10 PM) Frak: and keep your eyes open

(11:01:10 PM) ED: oh, ever hear of combine?

(11:01:21 PM) Frak: what is that?

(11:01:28 PM) ED: a radier group.

(11:01:35 PM) Frak: I haven't

(11:01:53 PM) ED: just as well, I will be trying to get their troops.

(11:02:00 PM) Frak: good stuff

(11:02:10 PM) Frak: I'm going to see what Punk is up for now.

(11:02:12 PM) Frak: ttyl?

(11:02:20 PM) ED: yep, take care.

(11:02:30 PM) Frak: k, see yeah

[Todd McCloud]

This is just a hunch, but I think kurdazistan has a hand in this. Volatile enough, likes to cause trouble, and he acts overtly-secretive too. There's one problem, though, he doesn't often keep secrets very well.I think we should try to pin down who this person is. It's obvious they're active in TWP. It's obvious they're aware of the current atmosphere between TSP and TWP. And it's obvious they're kind of new at the whole 'trying to cause trouble' game, but they can always learn. Also, I believe this guy is a citizen on our forums, just because it makes sense he'd try to go there. But I don't know who it could be. I checked the IP's, obviously no matches. No one seems to be from 'odd' places either. He's proxying, that's for sure. Try to prod him a bit. See if we can connect a guy here with him. If he says he has people here, let's figure out who it is. Could very well be someone in the cabinet too, mind you. Could very well be someone who will run in the next elections as well.So, keep your eyes peeled.

[Topid]

It was Kurd that mentioned Thor or Tor or whatever that IP protecting program is y'all intelligence folks use. He kept randomly saying he wasn't using it. I figured that meant he was but didn't think he could have been Frak.I say that because the way he ended up here seemed innocent enough, though I suppose it could have been an act. He was a member of 10kI who suggested 10kI open an embassy with us, when he realized we had one (I told him so by TG when he TGed me) he became frustrated that Grub refused to allow an in-game embassy with TSP, and kept hounding the two of us to establish one (I sent a request to TITO at least once prior to that, I think twice, and told them I was doing so in our embassy there along with a TG to Grub). Anyway, it wasn't long and he was banned from 10kI for dissenting Grub, but we kept talking by TG (mainly about Grub) and so he eventually came here. In my defense I didn't realize Kurd was a trouble maker, it isn't hard to get banned from 10kI. Anyway it seemed to me he had a legitimate reason for his appearance here, which came up after the Frak thing. Though I suppose he could be shady enough to have staged that whole drama so it didn't look suspicious when he showed up if he was paranoid about us suspecting him as Frak.BTW, I'll totally shut up if you don't want me speaking here.

[Todd McCloud]

I doubt Kurdz would orchestrate this in his entirety, but I should note, he was banned from TWP (and also TEP but that's irrelevant to the current discussion). I'll probably spend some time looking into it, but yeah.

[Todd McCloud]

Although after reading this

<a class='bbc_url' href='http://s4.zetaboards.com/fkot/topic/8835849/1/'>http://s4.zetaboards.com/fkot/topic/8835849/1/</a>

I have to say, it does sound like a few people.

[Todd McCloud]

Sorry for the triple post, lol.



After reading that, I gotta admit, this sounds an awful lot like Haxstree (Anur-Sanur). Biyah's post on the 6th page or so nails it - the rushed logic, long winded responses, and referencing himself despite not being a major player in TRR or relevant to the discussion, which is pretty much a big red flag for me. The specifics are often what give people away. Also, he came in during elections and tried to run then, when it looked like he wouldn't win, we began hearing from Frak.



But, there are some problems here. He begins one of his earlier posts by stating TSP and Punk + Dark should know who he is. Fact of the matter is, at that time he's relatively unknown to TSP. Furthermore, the guy appears to be quite opinionated about game mechanics. A-S never struck me as that kind of character. Also, I've checked A-S's IP's over the course of the past few years. This guy stays in Maryland. He also wants to get back into TEP, but has a forum ban there for harassing members. If he's good at proxying, which he must be seeing as Frak's IP is from Spain, why doesn't he just try to do one over there? I'd imagine it'd be caught, but still it's odd he didn't try it.



So, if this isn't A-S, it's definitely someone who is trying to <em class='bbc'>look</em> like him. Keep in mind he does have at least one guy as a citizen here, as someone had to tell him all the goings-on in the voting thread. On first thought someone might think this is Biyah. I'm pretty sure it isn't. Biyah's style is not like this; he's much more elusive and calculating in his movements. Plus I don't think his heart is in the game anymore. But it's clear from Frak's posts this fellow must know TRR very well, so much so that he must be intimately involved over there. If we look at who showed up, we see Sedge and Nai. This does not sound like Nai. Sedge is a bit of a wild card, and if it had to be someone other than A-S I'd peg him on it, but he really has no known connections to TWP other than the ones established just weeks before when he took TSP.



If this person said Dark and Punk should know him, he's not from TWP. Dark's TWP's foreign rep, and Punk is their delegate. If he's from TWP he'd know other people. But again, Kurdz cannot be left out here. Last week I got a telegram from both Dark and Punk stating that a Kurdz nation was in TEP and they just wanted to let me know since they banned him. I in turn banned him but only because the guy earned a forum ban with us too. Outside of Kurdz, I can't think of anyone outside of TWP. But there's a problem: I honestly don't think Kurdz ever interacted with A-S on a regular basis to copy his writing style, nor do I think Kurdz is able to have an open perspective on things. He tends to paint with two colors.



Some other outlyers from TWP came to mind, but again the TWP statement is bad and they're both too experienced of players to really pull stuff like this <em class='bbc'>and mean it</em>. Thought passed my mind, but I really don't see them doing it, nor carrying it on for an extended period of time.



So, putting this all together, I'm about 80% certain this is A-S. But I also don't think he's acting alone. I think he's joined a small group that fed him some information to help him piece a few puzzle pieces together and sound more informative and in-the-know. We'd best find who these people are.

[Belschaft]

^_^ Nice argument there Todd, and I agree, A-S remains the most likely candidate. Personally I'm convinced, but I doubt I could prove it; I could prove enough to get him kicked from the region, but not that he is Frak.FYI; Topid, as far as I'm concerned, you're input is always wanted.

[Topid]

Codger telegramed me and asked if I knew Mystique X was Kurd. MX is the nation conducting unendorsement campaigns on Punk while residing here, I guess either to stir up anti-TSPness in TWP again, or out of a dislike for TWP (though it actually helps their election process along...)I snarked him out of the region it seems.

[Belschaft]

Good to know.

[Daytime to Night]

Todd, can I have some IPs for A-S?

[Southern Bellz]

Absolutely not. If you guys want the Admin team to check IPs it is one thing, however the TSP forum will not be giving out IPs of the nations here.

[Daytime to Night]

Absolutely not. If you guys want the Admin team to check IPs it is one thing, however the TSP forum will not be giving out IPs of the nations here.

:eyes:

fine, I won't try and help.

[Belschaft]

Absolutely not. If you guys want the Admin team to check IPs it is one thing, however the TSP forum will not be giving out IPs of the nations here.

SB, IP tracing is one of the integral parts of NS counter intelligence, and is incredibly widespread; most intel departments and a fair few individual gameplayers end up compiling comprehensive IP lists; I think EuroSoviets once had 90+% of raider IP's. Now, it's one thing to give the cabinet access to everyone's IP's, but when a specific request is made regarding one player - who I should point out is the prime suspect in a plot against the region - to dismiss it out of hand cripples our attempts to conclusively ID Frak.

[Daytime to Night]

It says it all that I'm better off asking Sedge than our own admins :eyes:

[Tsrill]

I see where SB is coming from: as far as I know (I'm not a law-type person) an IP-address is personal identifiable information (the exact reason we want to use it ), and giving those to third parties without permission is in principle illegal. If something is widespread, doesn't make it less illegal (c.f. filesharing). Now checking IP addresses of individual players against those of another forum or internet place for security reasons is a bit of a grey area I think, also depending a bit on how it is done, and is sometimes a necessity in this game (and beyond). I think I would allow that (as you can see we haven't talked about this in admin yet ).Compiling a database of ip addresses of a certain group of players without their knowledge is most definitely illegal and a big nono.

[Daytime to Night]

I see where SB is coming from: as far as I know (I'm not a law-type person) an IP-address is personal identifiable information (the exact reason we want to use it ), and giving those to third parties without permission is in principle illegal. If something is widespread, doesn't make it less illegal (c.f. filesharing).

Now checking IP addresses of individual players against those of another forum or internet place for security reasons is a bit of a grey area I think, also depending a bit on how it is done, and is sometimes a necessity in this game (and beyond). I think I would allow that (as you can see we haven't talked about this in admin yet ).

Compiling a database of ip addresses of a certain group of players without their knowledge is most definitely illegal and a big nono.

IP addresses arn't actually classed as personally identifiable information as it is both an imprecise measure and they can only be used to identify a piece of hardware rather than an individual.

It is within Zetaboards terms of service to use and hold that information for internal management purposes, and well within the law to do so.

[Southern Bellz]

I know how NS intel works, and just because it is common place in this game does not mean it is in any way, shape or form the right thing to do. IP addresses cross the line from where the game stops and real life begins. I think your argument for the fact that giving out an IP address will mean that it will wind up in a database to continue a ridiculous practice is just more reason not to do so.As I said, if you guys have an IP for A-S, I will be more than glad to check it with our members list. I don't see how not giving you an IP can hamper your abilities to cross check IPs in the case of TSP. You guys do not need A-S's IPs for this admin team to cross check IP's.In fact, I think A-S has done enough in NationStates and TSP to warrant banning him from the region.

[Todd McCloud]

Let's not argue, folks. This is what Frak wants to have happen. I'd rather not give him what he wants, outlandish as it may seem.Let's get a running list of intel and any tidbits we can come up with. Anything and everything about this Frak person.

[Daytime to Night]

Well Frak and A-S's IPs trace to five miles away from one another. But A-S is consistently with a different ISP to the legitimate one we have for Frak, so maybe they're RL friends or just use different computers...

[Tsrill]

Is one of those a mobile operator?

[Antariel]

Due to absence:So Frak basically shut up once bels took the delegacy, and the blow hasn' fallen yet?

[Belschaft]

He shut up once his attempt to run an un-endorsement campaign against Fudgie back fired and she gained 20 endo's in two days, and when as his last act Topid ejected two suspected sleeper agents.He'll be back.

[king j]

i agree he will be back, my guess he is getting new sleepers in ready for his next plan.