TREATY: TSP - TEP

[Belschaft]

There are three TEP magisters who've been attacking TSP over there for being an 'elitist oligarchy' - Unibot, Prussia and Topid - but I hardly think we should condemn TEP based upon that. Moralistic Defenders will act and speak as they are wont too, and we can hardly expect UDL members to be nice about us. The majority of TEP, especially the executive, seems to be moderate and reasonable.

[Cormac]

I tend to agree with Hileville, though I'm far more concerned that one of their Magisters came here with a subtle threat regarding the implications for this treaty due to Unibot's ban than I am about their own internal discussion. A few Magisters bashing TSP on the TEP forum, while diplomatically inappropriate in the extreme, probably isn't a reason to turn our backs on this treaty. A Magister and General in the EPSA coming here and attempting to interfere in decisions made by our forum administration with veiled threats probably is a reason to turn our backs on this treaty.

 

I would add that all it takes for a moderate and reasonable executive to become extreme and unreasonable is one election, and recent trends in TEP do not give one an encouraging sense that the next election will result in moderation and reason.

[Vibrant Coconuts]

I think I've decided to support this after all.

[Sandaoguo]

This is absurd. The treaty is still under negotiation, and I expect former Ministers and administrators to understand the dynamics of treaty negotiations. The East Pacific has the right to request changes, just as we do. We requested a change that challenged their self-determined status as a defending region, by requiring that they allow us to raid regions they are defending. To many, that would be an unreasonable request, but it was not outright rejected. Instead, several Magisters felt that the wording needed to be changed, because it left too many things unclear.

 

To suddenly oppose the treaty because a few mean things were said is childish. I don't care if Prussia thinks TSP is an elitist oligarchy. Prussia doesn't have any authority over the treaty's application. I don't care that Unibot doesn't like Article 9 of our Charter. Unibot doesn't have any authority over the treaty's application. What I do care about is how our region -- particularly our powerful and influential members -- react to these situations. And I'm not impressed. I'm tired of people in this region letting everything revolve around their personal feelings for one player.

 

I'm glad that there are cooler heads here, so we can continue negotiations. We need to offer language that clarifies the "no hostility" clause. Currently, Magisters in TEP are worried that the current language carves out special cases for us, but doesn't allow the ESPA the same flexibility. We need to consider whether it is appropriate to allow the NSA and the ESPA to go against each other, without those activities being considered hostile.

[Cormac]

Again, my concern is not so much what they're saying in TEP, but that Prussia came here to attempt to interfere in a decision made by our forum administration with a thinly veiled threat regarding this treaty. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that a member of their legislature and high ranking figure in their military -- in fact he's operational commander, isn't he? -- should refrain from coming here and threatening us in regard to an internal TSP matter.

 

Your argument that the request we made to change the treaty is just as unreasonable is absurd. TEP's defender alignment is not merely an internal issue but also an external one, and valid grounds for discussion in relation this treaty. Our internal administrative decisions, meanwhile, shouldn't have any bearing on this treaty and certainly shouldn't prompt Prussia to come here and threaten us.

 

I would be fine with language to give the EPSA the same exception the NSA is being given, but you need to actually address others' concerns, rather than calling them childish, or you're going to end up with nay votes regardless of further negotiations. It's valid to wonder if diplomatically immature extremists who are in TEP's legislature and military, citizens prominent enough that they could be Delegate one day in the not too distant future, are going to make TEP a problematic ally for us. You need to address those concerns, Minister, not dismiss members of the Assembly to whom you are accountable as "childish."

 

Edit: Umm, doesn't the clause already say that neither force will engage in hostilities against the other's forces in a third party region? How is this being construed not to apply equally to the NSA as to the EPSA?

[Punk D]

Having partially read through the thread in TEP, watching their magisters state (paraphrasing) that they are vehemently opposed to the treaty but though they were the only ones are what defines the word "coward". 

 

From Unibot who I wish could see this post:

 

 

 

I know Topid said the same thing as me and Prush; we came out against when we realized so many of us were against (thinking we had been alone in our feelings).

 

I'm not privy to the laws of TEP and what authority Magister's hold. Is that just another word for citizen or are these folks real decision makers in TEP? It does appear that some members of TEP's Magisterium are taking a more patient, dare say, diplomatic approach. 

 

Indeed, Unibot was dismissed as an ambassador. I thought that was quite funny.

 

But I suppose if Unibot's intent was to railroad the negotiations, he's been successful. And do we really want Unibot having any level of success determining our FA policy? 

 

That's a rhetorical question.

[Cormac]

But I suppose if Unibot's intent was to railroad the negotiations, he's been successful. And do we really want Unibot having any level of success determining our FA policy? 

 

That's a rhetorical question.

 

Rhetorical or not, I really think this is the crux of the matter. Unibot has become very influential in The East Pacific very quickly, and any region in which Unibot is pulling the strings -- as he so clearly is right now in TEP -- is not a stable ally for The South Pacific. As we've seen here with the TNI treaty, now that he's so vehemently opposed to this treaty he will do everything he can to undermine it, and given that TEP appears to be much more impressionable than TSP I think he'll likely meet with more success. TSP loses nothing by not having TEP as a treaty ally, but stands to lose a lot, diplomatically, if we tie ourselves to a region that allows Unibot to make constant diplomatic trouble for us.

[Geomania]

Legislative actions seldom pass unanimously. The opposition in TEP seems to be coming from an extremely vocal minority. I'm not sure why the opinion of three vociferous citizens should torpedo this great attempt at diplomacy.

[Punk D]

Legislative actions seldom pass unanimously. The opposition in TEP seems to be coming from an extremely vocal minority. I'm not sure why the opinion of three vociferous citizens should torpedo this great attempt at diplomacy.

 

I would agree.

 

Cormac - Unibot was dismissed as an ambassador so I'm not sure how much influence he has. Now that TEP is defender, no doubt Unibot will be hanging out there as much as possible. I don't believe we should lump TEP with Unibot given the number of people who have worked on this treaty. 

[Hileville]

Having partially read through the thread in TEP, watching their magisters state (paraphrasing) that they are vehemently opposed to the treaty but though they were the only ones are what defines the word "coward". 

 

From Unibot who I wish could see this post:

 

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
 

 

I know Topid said the same thing as me and Prush; we came out against when we realized so many of us were against (thinking we had been alone in our feelings).

 

I'm not privy to the laws of TEP and what authority Magister's hold. Is that just another word for citizen or are these folks real decision makers in TEP? It does appear that some members of TEP's Magisterium are taking a more patient, dare say, diplomatic approach. 

 

Indeed, Unibot was dismissed as an ambassador. I thought that was quite funny.

 

But I suppose if Unibot's intent was to railroad the negotiations, he's been successful. And do we really want Unibot having any level of success determining our FA policy? 

 

That's a rhetorical question.


</blockquote>
There are 12 magisters in TEP.  In their last several votes only 8 have voted (9) in one.  This is their legislature.  A treaty needs a simple majority to pass.

 

/former TEP citizen who still likes to keep up on things

[Sandaoguo]

Again, my concern is not so much what they're saying in TEP, but that Prussia came here to attempt to interfere in a decision made by our forum administration with a thinly veiled threat regarding this treaty. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that a member of their legislature and high ranking figure in their military -- in fact he's operational commander, isn't he? -- should refrain from coming here and threatening us in regard to an internal TSP matter.

I don't think it's anything to get worked up over. Who cares what Prussia is saying on our forums? I see it no differently than politicians going on TV railing against a treaty being negotiated by an administration. If they were rallying a majority bloc against the treaty, it would be a credible threat. But that's not what we've seen. And I still wouldn't care that Prussia came here to deliver political threats. We have to keep our eyes on the big things and not obsess over the small things.
 

You need to address those concerns, Minister, not dismiss members of the Assembly to whom you are accountable as "childish."

If I believed issues were being raised that needed to be addressed, I would address them. As it is, I don't think anything has occurred that is relevant to these negotiations. If you do not believe that our administration's banning of Unibot, a TEP Magister, has any bearing on the negotiations, then you should also not believe that Prussia's ranting in our forums has any bearing either.

The real issue here is how we amend the language, if at all. TEP's delegate requested that we make changes to clarify that neither side shall consider missions on a common target to be hostile. So let's clarify the language.

[Cormac]

I don't find such language acceptable, if I'm reading the request right. Missions that involve an NSA or EPSA lead would be hostile and should be considered as such. Missions in which we're providing support, at update or after, shouldn't be. I'm fairly sure the existing language covers this.

[Belschaft]

Glen has the right on this one. It would be foolish of us to allow a small group of ideologues to derail these negotiations, as TEP's own government recognizes. Further, we can help strengthen that government and marginalize the UDL lobby in TEP by going ahead with the mutually beneficial treaty they are trying to scupper.


Unibot and friends are not, after all, trying to destroy TEP-TSP relations because this treaty is bad for TEP; this treaty is bad for interegional defending and the UDL, because it makes TEP less dependent on them. A treaty between TEP and TSP is good for both our regions and bad for the UDL; the fact that Prussia, Unibot and Topid are putting their loyalty to UDL above what is good for TEP will not go unnoticed there.

[Sandaoguo]

I'm fairly sure the existing language covers this.

The problem isn't that the existing language doesn't cover it, but that some TEP Magisters think it's unclear. Is there a way we can make the language more plain?

[UnitedSolarRepublic]

Given the current situation in The East Pacific, I am inclined to support this as much as I possibly can. The treaty is vital for the peace and integrity of relations between regions, and I do have to add that even though Unibot may be a vocal minority, he's an influential vocal minority. An influential vocal minority that may sway the opinions of other not familiar with this region. This treaty, while not helping to deal with Unibot's comments, can still help improve the view of us in The East Pacific. 

[Cormac]

Hasn't TEP shelved this for the moment?

[Rebel-topia]

If we get this moving, we can show them we actually care about this getting done... not just treaty for the sake of treaty kinda deal...

[Geomania]

The Chair asking for a motion? If so, I would like to motion to vote.

[Sandaoguo]

This is not ready for a vote. Bach is consulting with the Magisterium. I've requested that TEP send us language, since nobody here is able to clarify the problematic clauses.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rebel-topia]

This is not ready for a vote. Bach is consulting with the Magisterium. I've requested that TEP send us language, since nobody here is able to clarify the problematic clauses. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

(not to come across sarcastic) Since they're the ones with the problem with the wording, they should revise the text to their liking...

[Punk D]

Looks like Milograd is running for TEP delegate. If he wins, does that kill the TEP-TSP treaty?

[Cormac]

I haven't checked, but is it a joke campaign? He would obviously have to give up the Delegacy of Lazarus in order to serve as TEP Delegate.

 

Regardless, I don't think Milograd's election in and of itself should kill the treaty. Taken together with other recent events, however, I'm increasingly of the opinion that The East Pacific isn't even a desirable ally. What are we getting out of this again?

[Sandaoguo]

It's like what we went through with Lazarus. While some people believed Milograd's election ruled out TSP-Lazarus relations, the Cabinet believed there was room for trust-building exercising. Milograd being a delegate of a region doesn't threaten our security in any way, especially considering his self-identification with defending and the very low likelihood of a GCR-GCR war in the first place. So, no, if on the off chance Milograd switches which GCR he's delegate of, that won't hurt the prospects of our relationship with that GCR.

[Belschaft]

I think TEP is and will remain a desirable ally, should the moderate faction (represented by incumbent Bach) maintain control of the executive in their current elections. If the extremists manage to win then this dead in the water, simply as they are committed to killing TSP-TEP relations on ideological grounds.

[Belschaft]

It's like what we went through with Lazarus. While some people believed Milograd's election ruled out TSP-Lazarus relations, the Cabinet believed there was room for trust-building exercising. Milograd being a delegate of a region doesn't threaten our security in any way, especially considering his self-identification with defending and the very low likelihood of a GCR-GCR war in the first place. So, no, if on the off chance Milograd switches which GCR he's delegate of, that won't hurt the prospects of our relationship with that GCR.

Milograd isn't the issue, Prussia is.