The South Pacific - moving on from the past.

[Lord Ravenclaw]

The biggest problem, I think with this region at the moment, is that it has never fully recovered from the Milo coup. It has never allowed itself to look at in context, with hindsight and the feelings associated with that and has allowed itself to grasp the anger it felt then and apply it to handling possible events in the future.

 

I do not think that attitude will work in the long run, and will only cause more divisions on this region - something which is dangerous - which will promote instability and factionalism, like in a certain not to be named sinker.

 

I think it could be time to look at saying goodbye to the past and deciding how The South Pacific could move forward together as a united group.

 

To that extent, I'd like to open a discussion on Milograd. Yes, a tenuous topic for the region, but one which plays a very important point for this: What do we gain by keeping him permanently banned?

 

Do we want to demon-ise the events of April/May, in the cause of not forgetting it? Perhaps I am a little less volatile towards coups, seeing as I have had to deal with quite a few of them lately.

 

Milograd is currently the delegate of Lazarus - a position he holds legally and he has done wonders for the region, turning it from a severely inactive region into a region which is improving on all aspects.

 

Milograds ban could be revoked by the Assembly passing a motion of pardon, but that does not mean to say that he'd be allowed citizenship or access to anything beyond a basic level. Just food for thought:

 

Will The South Pacific show that it has moved on from the past and that despite Milo's greatest effort, remains a strong and united region, or will it show itself as divided, jaded and focused on the past?

[Escade]

Thank you for bringing up this topic, Raven. I agree with everything said. 

 

There are many facets to Milograd. I've seen countless posts of his on the forums as Carta. He was an active and engaged citizen.  He had some great ideas. 

 

Then there was the coup.

 

Now there is the Milograd who I meet here and there. He's grown more mature. He's still active, and funny, and an interesting person. He's a human being.  

 

The hardest thing to do is to let go of betrayal and anger when you feel that someone's broken you trust.  And yet, that feeling is the worst - the holding it in your heart. It's pretty corrosive to self. 

 

He made a terrible mistake, for that he lost quite a lot already: friendships, trust, hope.  Then there are the less important things.  Are we at the point where we could consider taking off the forum ban?

 

I think so.  I wouldn't let him run for a government position, not yet  not until he's built as much as he broke.  Still, letting him get back here would be a way for us to be human, people playing this lovely game together with its sorrows and strangeness. 

[Unibot]

I'm in favor of lifting the forum ban.

[Vibrant Coconuts]

Does there exist a good summary/history of the coup itself, for those of us who've only heard very partial accounts? Some of what I've seen doesn't make me unsympathetic towards Milograd, but I recognise that I've only really heard one particular version of the events, and for a discussion like this it's probably helpful to know what actually happened (much as Raven desires to move past those happenings).

 

Edit: toning down

[Awesomiasa]

Basically, Milograd went rogue and started purging nations (including Cabinet members) in an attempt to create a Maoist/socialist state. However, he has since apologized, stating that he regretted his actions.

 

Having been the Temporary Presiding Justice during his trial (I delivered his punishment), regardless of my personal feelings towards his actions, I'll be for a pardon of some kind towards Milo. He has apologized, and moved on.

 

I don't see why we can't do so.

[tsunamy]

This might be unpopular, but I typically work off of a "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me motto."

 

As such, I think any removal of the ban is a mistake.

 

There is legitimately not a way to trust him. I don't trust his apology. I don't trust him on IRC. I don't trust him as far as I can virtually throw him.

 

I agree that we as a region need to get past it. But this isn't the way to do it.

[Southern Bellz]

Milograd is banned because he committed treason and committed mass abuse against the nations of The South Pacific.  He had his chance when he went on trial and instead of fighting it, make a mockery of the courts.  He chose his course of actions, and he can stick with the consequences.

 

I don't have a personal problem with Milo, I can laugh with him on IRC, but I can not trust him again.  More importantly, I don't want to give him a shred of credibility that his actions are acceptable in any way.  From a pure gameplay perspective, letting him back in says that you can attack this region in the worst possible way and get away with it as long as you are funny once in awhile.

 

I don't want to talk to him here, and it really would make this forum a more uncomfortable environment for me to post in.  He had his fun at the expense of TSP for no reason.  He basically was trolling us for his entire coup.  If this region would rather look out for it's criminals than its citizens, then I think this assembly needs to reflect on who it is representing.

 

This doesn't mean I harbor personal animosity towards him or haven't moved on.  I wish him nothing but the best of luck, but I want to post in a TSP forum free from a TSP criminal, and I don't think that is unreasonable.

[Sandaoguo]

It's difficult for me, because I think there's something to be said for the practice of shunning people who commit GCR coups. It strengths the norm against it, making it more costly to commit. On the one hand, Milograd should be permanently banned. On the other hand, Milograd hasn't been shunned by other regions, and even we allow him on our IRC channel and many of us have a good time with him around. That speaks, I think, to the nature of his coup --- that it wasn't done with malicious intent, and that he really repented from it. His coup really was idiosyncratic. I don't think anybody can rightly believe that he'd be able to coup again, because he doesn't have the backing of the large powers (and in fact didn't back when he coup'd, which is why failure was mathematically inevitable).

 

So I lean towards lifting his ban and welcoming him back into the community proper, if he even wants to be here. I'm not 100% sold on it, though. I'd need to hear what a lot of other people think.

[Cormac]

Let me preface this by saying that I like Milograd. I think he's sincere in his regret for the coup of The South Pacific, I think he's doing great things with Lazarus, and I think The South Pacific can and should have positive relations with Lazarus while he is Delegate as well as after.

 

But I don't think he should be welcomed back into the community as a citizen.

 

Lift his forum ban? Maybe. It may be that The South Pacific is ready to have him here solely in his capacity as a diplomat representing Lazarus, though some comments in this thread would indicate that some are justifiably not even ready for that. But definitely not citizenship, and I'll tell you why: In December 2012, a very stubborn individual (hi Glen!), a citizen of Osiris at the time, was adamant in his insistence that Osiris should not just forgive and forget the coup that Neo Kervoskia, Biyah, and Dalimbar had just perpetrated against Osiris. He argued that was a recipe for instability, that it sent the wrong message to them regarding the acceptability of their actions as well as to future would-be coupers. It sent the wrong message to Osiris more broadly, as well, that if you were part of the power elite there is no action that won't be forgiven and forgotten. I was among those who refused to listen to him, and one of my greatest regrets in NationStates is not listening to him as it likely would have spared Osiris all of the instability of 2013.

 

Milograd might regret what he did -- I certainly believe he does -- and The South Pacific might even forgive him. But forgiveness does not necessarily mean pardon. Pardon sends the wrong message to him, the wrong message to future Delegates who might consider a coup, and the wrong message to The South Pacific more broadly. It sends the same message it sent in Osiris. Will the outcome here be the same as it was in Osiris? Maybe, maybe not. But dispensing with justice in the name of forgiveness encourages instability. Those who would consider a coup against this region should believe that they will never again be welcomed back into its community, or at least not for a very long time -- far longer than a few months. The members of this region's community should see that justice in The South Pacific is for everyone and that those who have found themselves in positions of power won't get any special exemption. These are important messages to send.

 

In my view, as someone who has been aware of events in The South Pacific but has only experienced them as a citizen very recently, I don't think this is the kind of moving on that needs to happen. I don't think this would be healthy, at all, at this time. But I do agree with Raven that the region needs to deal with the coup and its aftermath and move on from it. The way to do that is not pardon for the perpetrator, but rather honest discussion about what happened. The South Pacific needs to discuss Milograd's motives -- stated or otherwise -- and whether those had any merit, even if his solution to the problems he raised was unacceptable. The South Pacific also needs to discuss the distrust that the coup created, not toward Milograd but within the community and between members of the community. I think we'll find that distrust has a lot to do with some of the recent controversies in the Assembly and in the Cabinet, and getting those feelings out and acknowledging them is the first step in moving past them.

 

Finally, it's important to note that if we believe The South Pacific hasn't healed from the April coup yet -- which would seem to be what many are saying -- then the last thing that needs to happen is bringing back the person responsible for that before healing has taken place. If there is still distrust in the community, bringing back the root of that distrust is only going to aggravate the problem further. If members of the community are still not prepared to trust each other there is no way they're prepared to trust Milograd again. There may be a time for Milograd to return to the community, but that time should be after justice has been effectively served and, even more importantly, after the community has worked through its issues and healed -- not before.

[Letoilenoir]

An arrangement with Milo & TSP is desirable whilst he remains delegate in Lazarus.

 

Given the direction he has taken that region in, co-operation between Lazarus and TSP would genuinely seem to present real possibilities for mutual benefit,

 

However, unless Milo is actively seeking re-entry as a citizen, this conversation is irrelevant.

TSP would be better off seeking to emulate the re-vitalisation of Lazarus, and re-emerging from the trauma of the coup with a sense of clarity and vitality.

 

We should be making history rather than re-living it

[Belschaft]

I agree that the region has yet to recover from the Milograd coup; that should surprise no one. It was very much a traumatic event for the region, the first time one of our own had betrayed us. Milograd is the greatest criminal in the history of the region, the first TSP Delegate to go rogue since the Coalition was formed over ten years ago. That is not an event that a region recovers from quickly. It is not an event which can be forgotten, nor is it an event that should ever be forgiven. Regrettably it's made us all less trusting, but that is something that will only pass with time.

 

There is no place in TSP for Milograd, and never will be again. Such is the the result of treason.

[Southern Bellz]

I can't be the only person to think that Lazarus has enough self awareness that they knew that electing someone who committed treason in TSP (especially in such public fashion) would be a barrier to TSP-Lazarus relationships in some respects.

[Sandaoguo]

In December 2012, a very stubborn individual (hi Glen!), a citizen of Osiris at the time, was adamant in his insistence that Osiris should not just forgive and forget the coup that Neo Kervoskia, Biyah, and Dalimbar had just perpetrated against Osiris. He argued that was a recipe for instability, that it sent the wrong message to them regarding the acceptability of their actions as well as to future would-be coupers. It sent the wrong message to Osiris more broadly, as well, that if you were part of the power elite there is no action that won't be forgiven and forgotten. I was among those who refused to listen to him, and one of my greatest regrets in NationStates is not listening to him as it likely would have spared Osiris all of the instability of 2013.

I think there are a lot of differences between what Biyah did and what Milograd did, including Biyah expecting to solidify power in the region, but I see your broader point. I'm just not so sure we've been consistent with this type of punishment, considering a lot of us still like Milograd, and some of us consider him a friend. I'm wondering if his ban has the intended consequence (and the consequence isn't just him being banned) considering our own actions towards him.

Also, the idea that TSP and Lazarus can't have good relations because Milograd is delegate is just dumb. It was dumb when you guys said it when he was first elected, and it's dumb now. That's the kind of foreign policy being driven by personal animosity that the current government has continuously rebuked.

[HEM]

No.

 

We do need to move on, we do need to heal, but a pardon is not the way to do it.

 

Milograd committed a major crime against the South Pacific. I was the Minister of Justice (and later Chief Justice) during his coup, and he was extended multiple opportunities to back down. He was given countless chances for redemption. The judicial system here showed him leniency beyond what any system could. Even after he was thrown out of the region on the curb, on his ass, the court system still gave him every opportunity for remorse and apology.

 

He didn't give it.

 

I'm sorry, but as the presiding justice for 99% of his trial, I don't trust a word that comes out of his mouth. If he wants to be apart of Nationstates gameplay, he has to be sorry, which creates a moral hazard for an apology that may or may not be sincere.

 

We need to move on. To an extent -- we can forgive -- but we cannot forget.

[Drugged Monkeys]

Never will I support a pardon for Milograd.

[Unibot]

The only reason why we haven't gotten over it is because the pro-TNI Old Guard of TSP have continued to bring up the Milo Coup rhetoric to divide the region - that's their main propaganda piece. Milo = bad. Lazarus = bad. FRA = bad. TNI = good.

 

If we didn't have that voice constantly whispering in our ears to get angry about Milograd once more, we would be pursuing relations with the strongest of the GCRs (at the time of the writing) and not letting TNI or Milograd's unfortunate history get in the way. 

 

Comparing The Empire with Milograd is ridiculous. Georgie pardoned The Empire, the day after - and he did so to avoid civil war according to him. This is the exact opposite situation, Milograd's coup has been an opportunity for politicians here to divide public opinion and politically capitalize. Milograd's coup lasted a few weeks, these opportunists threaten the entire future of The South Pacific. 

[Hileville]

The only reason why we haven't gotten over it is because the pro-TNI Old Guard of TSP have continued to bring up the Milo Coup rhetoric to divide the region - that's their main propaganda piece. Milo = bad. Lazarus = bad. FRA = bad. TNI = good.


If we didn't have that voice constantly whispering in our ears to get angry about Milograd once more, we would be pursuing relations with the strongest of the GCRs (at the time of the writing) and not letting TNI or Milograd's unfortunate history get in the way.


Comparing The Empire with Milograd is ridiculous. Georgie pardoned The Empire, the day after - and he did so to avoid civil war according to him. This is the exact opposite situation, Milograd's coup has been an opportunity for politicians here to divide public opinion and politically capitalize. Milograd's coup lasted a few weeks, these opportunists threaten the entire future of The South Pacific.

We have a Treaty with Lazarus and have had great talks with them.


For the record I support uncannily milo from the region and forums with a permanent ban on membership in the Cabinet.

[Unibot]

We pursued that pact with Lazarus and struck a mature interregional dialogue while the Old Guard was kicking and screaming about "MILO, traitor of TSP!!".  

[Libetarian Republics]

Judging by the posts, it's pretty clear that the community itself is not ready to have Milograd return. Not speaking for Milograd, I believe he somewhat knows he's not ready to return either. It's clear that the consequences and the aftermath of the coup have grown present throughout the last few months. Nevertheless, this is the time where we can make TSP stronger than ever.

 

The night is darkest before the dawn. And I promise you, the dawn is coming.

[Kris Kringle]

I always enjoy a Dark Knight reference. :P

[Alv]

I would be alright with Milograd being allowed back but with some restrictions. For instance,not letting him view sensitive information or running ever in any election.

Milo is really a cool guy, Just not a trustworthy one.

[tsunamy]

Comparing The Empire with Milograd is ridiculous. Georgie pardoned The Empire, the day after - and he did so to avoid civil war according to him. This is the exact opposite situation, Milograd's coup has been an opportunity for politicians here to divide public opinion and politically capitalize. Milograd's coup lasted a few weeks, these opportunists threaten the entire future of The South Pacific. 

 

Because this language isn't divisive at all ...

 

Again, people are fighting the ghost of Milo, but letting him back in isn't the solution to that. It's going to take time and people pointing who when others are fighting shadows.

[Southern Bellz]

Unibot, I know that Milograd

 

The only reason why we haven't gotten over it is because the pro-TNI Old Guard of TSP have continued to bring up the Milo Coup rhetoric to divide the region - that's their main propaganda piece. Milo = bad. Lazarus = bad. FRA = bad. TNI = good.

 

If we didn't have that voice constantly whispering in our ears to get angry about Milograd once more, we would be pursuing relations with the strongest of the GCRs (at the time of the writing) and not letting TNI or Milograd's unfortunate history get in the way. 

 

Comparing The Empire with Milograd is ridiculous. Georgie pardoned The Empire, the day after - and he did so to avoid civil war according to him. This is the exact opposite situation, Milograd's coup has been an opportunity for politicians here to divide public opinion and politically capitalize. Milograd's coup lasted a few weeks, these opportunists threaten the entire future of The South Pacific. 

 

Are you seriously going to continue the script of blaming people you don't agree with for all of TSP problems while defending the biggest criminal in the region's history? (Which I would imagine has a lot to do with Milo declaring Laz's loyalty to defending).  

 

Everyone is tired of this.  Every time you don't agree with someone you just attack them personally.  Maybe we could move on if you didn't personally insult them and blame people

 

For the record, the NSA just had a deployment with the LLA.  So keep speaking in ignorance about the 'old guard' while some of us actually have make moves for both regions to move on together.

[Sandaoguo]

I don't think Unibot is personally insulting or attacking anybody. He's remarking on the broader systemic reasons he sees for why TSP is still caught up on Milograd. In fact, he didn't mention anybody's name, so if you feel that he was personally attacking you, perhaps there's something in his post that you see in yourself...

 

The fact is that we haven't done anything more than sign a "non-aggression pact" with Lazarus because of Milograd. That is the sole reason for why we don't have a treaty with Lazarus on the same level we have a treaties with our allies. We are caught up on Milograd, and it's not healthy and it's not good for us.

 

Unibot mentioned the use of Milograd as rhetoric to divide, because some of us have seen it lately. Belschaft characterized Escade's endorsement of Farengeto and myself as part of a "cult of youth" and said she's bringing back the "oligarch" rhetoric from Milograd's coup. A simple forum search disproves that. Whenever somebody brings up the possibility that having the same people in power over and over again is bad for the region, we're accused of creating divides and using "oligarch rhetoric." Are we supposed to just ignore the insinuations that we're reenacting Milograd's coup?

 

That's the kind of stuff Unibot is bringing up, and don't say it's nonsense or personal attacks. A personal attack is different from pointing out some systemic problems that arise from a group of people being in power for a long time. We're allowed to comment on that without being tied to Milograd and without being accused of starting a "veteran" witch-hunt.

[Escade]

GR, 

 

I will go through the Assembly threads some time this coming week and highlight all  the many topics are derailed into this "us" vs. "them" mentality.  It makes it difficult for people to discuss without feeling like they are under attack.

 

Players, such as myself until recently, who are not familiar with what is going on are made uncomfortable.  Even as MoRa, I avoided Assembly threads because of the fact that they often descended into conversations that were not about the proposed subject.

 

It is a different matter to disagree in a cordial manner and an entirely different matter to disagree in a way that has at multiple times in posts in the Assembly served to lead to rude conversations.  There is no binary of good vs. evil in TSP.  There are only individuals with different perspectives. 

 

There is no "us" or "them."  We are all people with TSP's best interests at heart.  If anyone would like to discuss any "systemic oppression" they feel please start a new thread and list specific instances or cases.  Nebulous accusations from any person can be construed as an attack.

 

We are treatied allies with TNI, if someone has issues with this treaty start another thread. I, myself, hope to engage in better relations with our treated allies and add rather then subtract from our friends.

 

I understand completely when people say that they are not ready to see Milograd on these forums in any capacity.  We can work with Lazarus without giving their delegate access to our forums. It is conceivable.