Changes in Vice Delegate Elections

[Southern Bellz]

Hello everyone, I have mentioned this before with some people agreeing with me so I wanted to formalize a discussion that will result in a small specific change.

 

I believe the Vice Delegate should be elected independent from the delegate.  I won election under this system and I saw that there were candidates that would have love to have the chance to run for delegate but could not get a VD running mate in time.  HEM was my running mate, but he accepted his nomination a little but later than I would have liked and, I felt the extra time put me at a campaign disadvantage.

 

The real issue I have with it is the potential for it to be terribly abused in a coup.  Say we elected a ticket who were both wanting to coup.  Our region defeated the delegate, and puts the vice delegate in charge, just for the vice delegate to continue the coup.

 

I think if we had elections for delegate and vice delegate like other positions, our elections would be more competitive and an opportunity for abuse to be eliminated.

[Escade]

This might work for example if we expanded the current system.  

 

For example, delegates and vice-delegates could still run together. However, the election for each would be separate. That way if there was  a candidate running who the delegate would feel they could work well with then they could endorse them and work together.

 

Perhaps we might even have both, you either run as a ticket or you run on your own and the elections reflect that. 

[Southern Bellz]

This law would have nothing to do with campaigning, candidates would be free to endorse each other.

[Escade]

I am completely against anything that prevents a delegate and vice-delegate from running or being elected on a ticket. They have to work together on everything and it doesn't make sense to keep two people who work well together from running together.

 

When in the past has an elected delegate and their vice-delegate couped together?  Is this a fairly recurring phenomenon? Or is just backlash against the current delegate and vice-delegate? 

[tsunamy]

I totally support this change, but not under the assumption of a coup.

 

I feel like it's a deterrent to people who might want to run for delegate but not have someone to run with. Forcing a ticket makes it less likely for others with new ideas and makes it less probable new members will attempt to run.

[Escade]

That's why I'd be okay with both but not one or the other.

 

A delegate and vice-delegate run on a ticket with a certain vision. They work well together and have a great agenda. 

 

A delegate runs on a particular vision, a vice delegate on the opposite. They are elected and don't work well together and there is tension.

 

We can figure out a way so that one ticket people can also run. It shouldn't be too difficult for voters to understand or implement. 

[Unibot]

I've seen systems where they are independently elected and I don't think they work well. It's better to have a dynamic duo who are on the same page and trust each other, than a spotty hodge-podge of personalities (which we get with cabinet elections). Out of everyone, the Delegate and the Vice Delegate have to get along and be able to work with each other and have a great deal of trust for each other. 

[Unibot]

You could have it, Escade, so if someone runs alone on the ticket for Delegate - if they win, elections for Vice Delegate begin immediately after.

 

That way if voters like me feel its better to vote for a team, I will just avoid voting for the candidates who run alone for Delegate. 

[Libetarian Republics]

I'm not entirely familiar with how the South Pacific works but I feel that more democracy does not necessarily solve the problem. The Vice Delegate only role is really to have a vote on Cabinet's issue and maintain second endorsement counts behind the actual Delegate; thus if anyone wishes to be a Delegate they should be able to choose their appointed successor who will be there when necessary. I also wouldn't be too worry about coups between the "dynamic duo" as we already have the CSS to be our backdoor security.

 

You can however implement policies that will allow duo tickets voted in together or separate tickets but I'm not so sure how you do that

[Sierra Lobo]

What if the elected Vice delegate run on a platform contrary to the elected delegate? Who should break their vows?

[TheGrimReaper]

When in the past has an elected delegate and their vice-delegate couped together?  Is this a fairly recurring phenomenon? Or is just backlash against the current delegate and vice-delegate? 
 

 

Osiris showed that it is in fact more than possible for this SORT of thing to happen - the Security Council was at certain points almost self-regulating during coups, and they tended to abuse that power in between coupers and stable delegates.

 

Milo also toyed with the idea of, before his coup, solidifying his power by installing a new Vice Delegate, IIRC, but you are right in that he wouldn't have tried to do it on a whole new ticket - rather, he would have done it by appointment or as close to it as he could convince the broader voting public.

 

But, having said that, it's generally unusual for anybody to be as overt as to try and get their coup partner on-side onto a Vice Delegate ticket, and changes to the delegate system would absolutely not affect the CSS as a 'backdoor security' system either way, if my knowledge of the CSS is sound.

[Aramanchovia]

Could you just not elect a Vice Delegate and whoever is elected delegate chooses the VD out of the other elected cabinet members? This has the benefit of candidates not having to decide on a VD before running, also both delgate/vice are elected separately this way. As negatives, it will reduce the size of the cabinet and it is adding an extra responsibility to whoever the delegate chooses. Really though, I think anybody that is elected to cabinet should be willing to step up if required. How often has something happened where this has been required anyway? Once? Twice maybe? You could always allow them to opt out of being VD if they don't wish to take up that position I guess.

[Rebel-topia]

Could you just not elect a Vice Delegate and whoever is elected delegate chooses the VD out of the other elected cabinet members? This has the benefit of candidates not having to decide on a VD before running, also both delgate/vice are elected separately this way. As negatives, it will reduce the size of the cabinet and it is adding an extra responsibility to whoever the delegate chooses. Really though, I think anybody that is elected to cabinet should be willing to step up if required. How often has something happened where this has been required anyway? Once? Twice maybe? You could always allow them to opt out of being VD if they don't wish to take up that position I guess.

 

This wouldnt always work, as some cabinet members dont have their WA in TSP, or dont necessarily want to have it tied down. Some cabinet members, (Hile and I being the current examples) are in the NSA, and need a mobile WA.

 

 

I dont think this really works. Maybe open a section of the voting booth early, and have a "I want to run for Delegate, but dont have a VD... Anyone wanna join up?"

If, in this past election, someone I thought would be a good delegate would have contacted me, Id have joined as a VD.

[Drugged Monkeys]

What if I want to vote for the person running for Delgate but I dont approve of the VD choice, or vice versa? How do I vote then? Bite the bullet because I want a specific person or vote for another ticket?

 

I liked it better when we voted on each position seperately, It gives the voter the option to choose the best fit for the team of Delegate/VD. They should remain on the same election schedule, but be voted on seperately.

[Kris Kringle]

What happens if the elected Delegate and Vice Delegate have a terrible working relationship? A Vice Delegate doesn't have this set list of duties like Ministers, rather they give advice to the Delegate and help them lead the region. Therefore, both must have a good working relationship and trust each other. That relationship isn't something voters can force on the Delegate and Vice Delegate.

[Drugged Monkeys]

Keep in mind that the voters are the voice of the region, they are the ones needing to be satisfied with the decisions of the cabinet. As a Delegate or VD it is your job to keep the interests of the region and it's people as your highest priority, whether you get along with everyone on the cabinet or not.


Not once have I seen a cabinet elected where everyone got along with everyone, this is a fact of the democracy that we have. You can't predict what issues will arise during your term as Delegate, so you can't pick a VD who will always be aligned with your interests. The same would go for independent tickets. Work together for the region, not for yourself.


EDIT: Plus if the people of the region do not like the relationship they voted for as the term goes on, recall is always an option. The people vote you in and they damn sure can vote you out.

[Lord Ravenclaw]

I would support separate tickets and elections for the two roles. Makes more sense now that I think of it, although the VD role may need to be expanded to give them something to do rather than float around the various institutions.

[QuietDad]

Could always have one election for Delegate and the 2nd place candidate becomes Vice Delegate.

[Belschaft]

Could always have one election for Delegate and the 2nd place candidate becomes Vice Delegate.

Bad idea; the US tried it at the start and it went terribly. More often than not the top two candidates will be running on opposing platforms.

[QuietDad]

Didn't say it was a good idea, just tossing it out there.

[Escade]

Firmly against limiting elections so that two new people like Escade and Kris can't run together and play with "master's" toys. 

[Drugged Monkeys]

People are perfectly capable of endorsing one another during elections, this will give the appearance of a joint ticket if people want it.

[Hileville]

I'm unsure about this change.  When we created an elected Vice Delegate position there wasn't enough responsibility for them to be elected by themselves.  Besides adding another level of acceptance needed for citizenship that really hasn't changed.  

 

As it is now the campaigns for Vice Delegate alone would look something like this:

"I can check citizenship better than you" or "I can preside over the CSS better than you"

"No you can't"

"Yes I can".

 

If something changes in the position itself I wouldn't mind looking at separating the two positions though.

[tsunamy]

 

"I can check citizenship better than you" or "I can preside over the CSS better than you"

"No you can't"

"Yes I can".

 

No, you can't. :ph34r:

[Lord Ravenclaw]

I could probably do both of those roles better than most whilst half asleep.