Antariel

[Hileville]

So it was brought up on IRC about his ban and I guess we should have a discussion here about it. So can someone give me pros/cons on keeping or removing the ban?

[Eluvatar]

I don't think it should be modified; it should be allowed to expire in my opinion.

[Milograd]

So it was brought up on IRC about his ban and I guess we should have a discussion here about it. So can someone give me pros/cons on keeping or removing the ban?

<strong class='bbc'>Pros of Dropping Ban:</strong>

- If the ban was dropped, we would have someone consistently active to hold a government position that is likely being neglected.



<strong class='bbc'>Cons of Dropping Ban:</strong>

- If the ban was dropped, the punishments dealt by our government would be taken less seriously, and our law would appear weak.

- If the ban was dropped, it would be done so that a member of our region with a history of conspiracy could serve in the government.

- If the ban was dropped the already lenient punishment Antariel faced would only be loosened. This would be an injustice.

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<strong class='bbc'>Pros of Maintaining Ban:</strong>

- In maintaining the ban, TSP also maintains its punishments and confirms that they are to be upheld regardless of the circumstances.

- In maintaining the ban, we don't loosen an already lenient punishment, that of which - frankly - should have been banishment.



<strong class='bbc'>Cons of Maintaining Ban:</strong>

- In maintaining the ban, we restrict an active member of the region from assisting in the government, that of which has several neglected positions of importance.

[Milograd]

Our punishments should be upheld in their entirety, and should not be altered. Antariel should have been permanently banished from this region for his transgressions, but we were, unfortunately, lenient. His punishment should not be modified, and the only reason this seems to have been proposed is that amending his punishment would address a perceived weakness in this region. We must not display a sense of weakness by modifying his punishment, as such would make us pathetic and is not necessary. It is also better to have a vacant cabinet seat than to have a traitor in a position.

[Hileville]

The only reason I brought this up here is I saw a conversation about it on IRC. I really didn't pay any attention to the conversation or read over it. Thanks for giving me pros and cons Milo.

modifying his punishment, as such would make us pathetic and is not necessary.

Really? I don't see it as that if it were modified it would be TSP deciding what was best for TSP. If you are meaning other regions would see us as pathetic then I disagree even more with the statement. I have expressed elsewhere that I don't care all that much for how other people fell about us. This may not be the right attitude to have but when we start making decisions because it would be "popular" with other regions then we have serious internal problems to address.Also let me get to the point at hand. I do not support a removal of his ban for the current election cycle but would not be opposed to a reduction in the ban that would allow a June or September lifting.A question as I can't remember if we ever specified if the ban was also on deputy positions so did it? If it did I would support that being lifted now. I think that would be more of a chance for him to prove his loyalty to the region.

[Milograd]

Really? I don't see it as that if it were modified it would be TSP deciding what was best for TSP. If you are meaning other regions would see us as pathetic then I disagree even more with the statement. I have expressed elsewhere that I don't care all that much for how other people fell about us. This may not be the right attitude to have but when we start making decisions because it would be "popular" with other regions then we have serious internal problems to address.

I do not mean other regions. Antariel in a government position <em class='bbc'>is not what is best</em> for the South Pacific, and it is also not in the best interests of this region to loosen fairly lenient punishments that were implemented in response to severe crimes. I myself do not care for the opinions of other regions myself, and will always endorse what I believe is within this region's best interests, but do feel that modifying this ban would imply that this region needs Antariel in a government position. Antariel violated our trust and our laws when he previously held a government position, and to modify his ban so that he could serve within this region's government would be pathetic on our part. We are more active now than we have been in a while, and do not need to take measures such as this; our newer, active, law-abiding citizens could hold any position that Antariel could.



In the end, though, if Antariel wanted to serve on this region's government he should not have made the choices he did. This is his fault, his punishment, and it should remain as it is. And even <em class='bbc'>if</em> we modified this punishment, what duties or positions would he assume responsibility of?

[Unibot]

I agree with Carta.

[Eluvatar]

I'm interested in seeing what he does while the restriction continues, but I don't think we have enough grounds for "probation" yet especially as that wasn't specified before I don't think.

[Southern Bellz]

I do think we should consider 'good behavior' clauses for things like this in the future.

[Hileville]

Putting what Antariel did aside his trial was illegal. Once you resign from a position you cannot be impeached for Gross Misconduct. Antariel announced his resignation here: <a class='bbc_url' href='http://s2.zetaboards.com/theSPacific/single/?p=193768&t=953801'>http://s2.zetaboards.com/theSPacific/single/?p=193768&t=953801</a> and Unibot accepted his trial here: <a class='bbc_url' href='http://s2.zetaboards.com/theSPacific/single/?p=193799&t=953804'>http://s2.zetaboards.com/theSPacific/single/?p=193799&t=953804</a>. There was a three hour period before the Trial was accepted and the MoJ at the time ignored the law and allowed a trial which had no legal basis at that point to continue.I move for a cabinet vote on removing Antariel's ban on serving as a member of Cabinet. It should have never been implemented and I am just as much to blame as everyone else is. I didn't realize he had resigned. Put this with the work he has done for the SPA and I think the right decision should be made by this cabinet.I vote Aye to remove Antariel's ban.

[Rebel-topia]

As from what Hile just posted, I dont see why the sentence should not be dropped.

[Milograd]

Antariel committed crimes against this region in that he violated our trust by acting maliciously against our allies. He should <em class='bbc'>never</em> be elected to any cabinet position again, nor should he be welcomed within this region. He is, for all intents and purposes, a criminal here. He is a nice guy, but he is also a criminal.



With that said, though, despite the fact that he is a criminal, and despite the fact that he did commit crimes against this region, he never violated the rules which he was punished for violating. Therefore, I must regretfully vote in favor of removing his ban from serving in the cabinet, albeit I do not expect to see him elected.

[Hileville]

Well that is a majority in favor.

[Milograd]

Indeed.

[Rebel-topia]

Will you be making a public announcement?

[Hileville]

Yes. I am going to post it now.

[Rebel-topia]

Just wondering

[Hileville]

I didn't feel like posting it last night so I figured what would another day hurt.