TNI/UDL Discussion

[Southern Bellz]

I am not ready for the conversation we were having about UDL's attempt to sway the vote in a UDL friendly manner to come to an end. I don't believe it came to a natural conclusion and it is still an issue I am VERY uncomfortable with.To summarize my main post on the other forum:1) Unibot felt that TNI made an effort to make UDL members feel uncomfortable in Balder2) He said due to that effort, UDLers were seeking asylum in regions like TSP, which were more friendly to the UDL needs. His motivation to vote against the treaty was to attempt to block TNI relations in TSP so he could protect his UDL's members interests in residing in TSP without any democratic conflict.3) During the start of the voting period Unibot did not mention this AT ALL and listed a slew of other reasons to vote against this that range from paranoid to conspiracy theory. While directly telling his UDL friends, Solm and Mahaj what his real concerns are, and in turn the promptly voted for.4) Unibot said the reason he told the region untill a grilling by myself and other concerned parties is because he didn't want raiders to know the real reason.This is 100% unacceptable, and I need a resolution to this. If this happened in a delegate election, I would call it a coup. Unibot's concern was completely for his UDL allies and not for the people of TSP. He cared for his military interests of providing his soldiers a place where they can reside without interacting with raiders much. Instead of going to a region that has voted to follow a defender hardline, he comes to The South Pacific, one of the most welcoming regions in NS and attempts to twist its welcoming nature into a UDL utopia where raiders are hurled abuse and sworn at. Despite what UDLers claimed before, this was at least a semi-coordinated effort.Most of my evidence is gone with the old forum, and I do not think legal justice is a rout I want to take, but if I continue t see the UDLers dismissing the seriousness of his offence and fail to address a part of their organization that has exerted unwanted, outside influence on TSP, I will be taking Unibot to court.

[LadyRebels]

I will state here and now SB, just because I would want it out here. When I was asked to become EC of TSP I stated that I am in the UDL, title of Merrywoman. But there is no conflict of interest on my part because as I have stated in the past as I state here and now.If it comes to a choice between the UDL and TSP, hands down TSP has my loyalty. If anyone has an issue with this then please feel free to take it up with me. I think, have always thought, and will continue to think that TSP should above and beyond all be neutral, personal views aside it has always been in TSP's best interest to be neutral and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[Southern Bellz]

LadyRebels, I do not accuse you in this, but I need to be explained to me why the leader and founder of the UDL withheld information from the TSP assembly, while stating his real case to only UDL/TSP citizens. I am not saying all UDL/TSPers took part in this, but I am convinced that Unibot acted in UDL's interests in the TSP's assembly, and I can watch as something like this happens. Both of us have worked too hard to keep this region free to see that happen.

[LadyRebels]

LadyRebels, I do not accuse you in this, but I need to be explained to me why the leader and founder of the UDL withheld information from the TSP assembly, while stating his real case to only UDL/TSP citizens. I am not saying all UDL/TSPers took part in this, but I am convinced that Unibot acted in UDL's interests in the TSP's assembly, and I can watch as something like this happens. Both of us have worked too hard to keep this region free to see that happen.

SB I know that you did not accuse of me anything, besides everyone should know that as an EC I do not cast votes except for one and that is for Madwoman/man/Craziest of TSP.Just sorta wanted to let you know that I stand beside you still.

[Southern Bellz]

I am glad you stand with me LadyRebels, for us to get real change out of this the moderate UDL/TSPers have to stand up for TSP and let Unibot know that his actions were not okay.

[Milograd]

I'm a member of the UDL, and in fact I am Second-in-Command of the UDL. I speak with bias, of course, but I daresay that I have only acted within TSP's best interests during my time in TSP. I have not acted with conflicting interests on any occasion, and believe that this is an example that only goes to show that you can be a member of both the UDL and TSP without it causing any problems.

[Mahaj]

you imply that not posting means not lurking around and reading.

[Southern Bellz]

you imply that not posting means not lurking around and reading.

You were involved in this. Unibot talked to you in private about the true nature of his vote, and you tried to conceal it from the region.

[Southern Bellz]

I'm a member of the UDL, and in fact I am Second-in-Command of the UDL. I speak with bias, of course, but I daresay that I have only acted within TSP's best interests during my time in TSP. I have not acted with conflicting interests on any occasion, and believe that this is an example that only goes to show that you can be a member of both the UDL and TSP without it causing any problems.

So what should we do when people dont hold themselves to you high personal standards?No official UDL statement has been made speaking out against his actions, as far as I know he has not been punished for being involved in undermining a democratic process. Now it is TSPs mess to clean up, and I have to come off for a bad guy and a UDL hater (which I am not) for speaking out against this.

[Mahaj]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' data-author="Mahaj">you imply that not posting means not lurking around and reading.

You were involved in this. Unibot talked to you in private about the true nature of his vote, and you tried to conceal it from the region.
</blockquote>you're joking.Unibot literally sent me nothing more than a link to the vote and his position. If you think he talked to me in depth about it, then you're wrong.fwiw his position was 'I don't want TSP and TNI to be allied'.

[Rebel-topia]

Unibot literally sent me nothing more than a link to the vote and his position. If you think he talked to me in depth about it, then you're wrong.fwiw his position was 'I don't want TSP and TNI to be allied'.

And thats the problem... when he just tells you "I dont agree", even though you are your own person, hes all but telling you how to vote

[A mean old man]

I think we've all forgotten that Uni's stance also revolves around by his individual experience in Balder. This was primarily brought about by some very personal battles with Rachel of TNI/Euro and a few of Rachel's friends, who are from TNI. As I said before, Unibot's personal beef with Rachel has nothing to do with the politics of TSP. Perhaps the position he presented to his fellow UDL members was also not entirely honest.It is unfortunate that we lost the previous forums, because without all of Uni's ranting and raving present for everyone to gape at, it's harder to remember just how insane the discussion that preceded the forum's death really was and how it led up to this. It is easy for some people to try to brush off SB's concerns. I'm not going to allow that to happen.The point here is that Unibot rallied certain UDL members (according to his own words from a conversation with SB that Carta witnessed), some of whom reappeared after long periods of inactivity and some of whom seemed to come on their own accord (though presumably with a purpose not catering to the best interests of TSP as a sovereign and neutral feeder region), to pile the vote on the TNI treaty in this Assembly. The reasoning he provided to those members revolved around a strictly UDL-centered agenda and did not align with his reasoning in these forums. During the debate (or debacle), he outright refused to consider the idea that TNI was not an utterly evil and subversive entity simply because of its "imperialist" nature, suggested (falsely) that they aided Sedge during the coup of TSP when they did the opposite, wrote off Southern Bellz's concerns because of her DEN connections, insulted Balder and implied that the region had been usurped by TNI's influence, continuously ran his mouth despite Hile's constant warnings, and only managed to (just barely) gain control of himself and return to his senses when I dragged someone who I knew could get him to calm down into the equation. It was lunacy, frankly.My concerns and the concerns of SB do not question the integrity of the entire UDL, and SB is not trying to "force Unibot out of another region." This is not, as Mahaj attempts to write it off as, another Unibot-hating thread. It is a thread with legitimate concerns on something perturbing which occurred in TSP's Assembly and which calls for some kind of response from Uni and/or from the UDL. So far there has been nothing apart from some discussion within the organization which has been held from the public. I don't want to see this swept under the carpet....and to be honest, I'm still pretty pissed that UDL member Camwood attained citizenship and immediately voted against the treaty approximately five minutes after I stated that I would "flip shit" if that was the first thing he did after he joined the Assembly.

[Milograd]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' data-author="Milograd">I'm a member of the UDL, and in fact I am Second-in-Command of the UDL. I speak with bias, of course, but I daresay that I have only acted within TSP's best interests during my time in TSP. I have not acted with conflicting interests on any occasion, and believe that this is an example that only goes to show that you can be a member of both the UDL and TSP without it causing any problems.

So what should we do when people don't hold themselves to you high personal standards?
</blockquote>We sincerely, and kindly, ask them to reconsider, and promptly address the problem with a change in our legal code, that of which addresses the problem if such becomes necessary.

[LadyRebels]

I think we've all forgotten that Uni's stance also revolves around by his individual experience in Balder. This was primarily brought about by some very personal battles with Rachel of TNI/Euro and a few of Rachel's friends, who are from TNI. As I said before, Unibot's personal beef with Rachel has nothing to do with the politics of TSP. Perhaps the position he presented to his fellow UDL members was also not entirely honest.It is unfortunate that we lost the previous forums, because without all of Uni's ranting and raving present for everyone to gape at, it's harder to remember just how insane the discussion that preceded the forum's death really was and how it led up to this. It is easy for some people to try to brush off SB's concerns. I'm not going to allow that to happen.The point here is that Unibot rallied certain UDL members (according to his own words from a conversation with SB that Carta witnessed), some of whom reappeared after long periods of inactivity and some of whom seemed to come on their own accord (though presumably with a purpose not catering to the best interests of TSP as a sovereign and neutral feeder region), to pile the vote on the TNI treaty in this Assembly. The reasoning he provided to those members revolved around a strictly UDL-centered agenda and did not align with his reasoning in these forums. During the debate (or debacle), he outright refused to consider the idea that TNI was not an utterly evil and subversive entity simply because of its "imperialist" nature, suggested (falsely) that they aided Sedge during the coup of TSP when they did the opposite, wrote off Southern Bellz's concerns because of her DEN connections, insulted Balder and implied that the region had been usurped by TNI's influence, continuously ran his mouth despite Hile's constant warnings, and only managed to (just barely) gain control of himself and return to his senses when I dragged someone who I knew could get him to calm down into the equation. It was lunacy, frankly.My concerns and the concerns of SB do not question the integrity of the entire UDL, and SB is not trying to "force Unibot out of another region." This is not, as Mahaj attempts to write it off as, another Unibot-hating thread. It is a thread with legitimate concerns on something perturbing which occurred in TSP's Assembly and which calls for some kind of response from Uni and/or from the UDL. So far there has been nothing apart from some discussion within the organization which has been held from the public. I don't want to see this swept under the carpet....and to be honest, I'm still pretty pissed that UDL member Camwood attained citizenship and immediately voted against the treaty approximately five minutes after I stated that I would "flip shit" if that was the first thing he did after he joined the Assembly.

I was not here for this, but I now see where the problem comes from and thank you AOM for stating it clearly.Honestly it needs to be addressed, and post haste would be a good thing.

[Southern Bellz]

LR, I am at a point where I don't know what to do about this. UDL members have been quick to distance themselves from it, yet at the same time the organization has has no response to this and thurst it on TSP to deal with it, in my mind further taking advantage of our welcoming nature.From what I gather some UDL members keep telling Unibot that they dont approve in private it, but in public they all support him or say, "I didn't put UDL above TSP." That isn't enough anymore.And if Unibot wants to say that I have been working with raiders to push an agenda, PROVE it. You can't just make up facts and get away with it, I have your words to back up all my claims. I wonder if Elu will nitpick your arguments Unibot, or if that stays in private.

[Antariel]

So do you want this to go to court? Cos Uni seems to be ignoring it.

[Antariel]

/hasn't been online.

[A mean old man]

I'm wondering if he actually plans to respond to this or if he is going to continue embellishing the truth both in TSP's forums and in private conversations with me and others in feeble attempts to placate everyone. If he tries to let this issue fade into obscurity, as is his apparent intent, I'm going to turn up the heat.

[Unibot]

I'm here! Sorry for being a bit slow.In regards to the discussion on TNI treaty I’d like to apologize for my behavior. It’s come to my attention that I do have an on-going, personal feud between Rachel Anumia and some select members of TNI that may have had me grabbing for straws to attack them. I don’t like others to know that their insults get under my skin, that I’m uncomfortable or upset. I presented an initial reason to not getting involved with TNI that really wasn’t why I was suggesting it – deceitful? Yes, probably. Justifiably deceitful? I was under the impression so since I didn’t feel I needed to get into any emotional reasons I may have had to vote against the treaty, but I’ve come to view that the deceit was just plain wrong and I should have been more forthright with the region right off the bat even if it meant that the rest of NationStates knows I’m a, erm, a little more delicate than I’d like to pretend. As for The United Defenders League connection, I think it’s fairly overblown; I did talk to Mahaj, Solm and Fisch about the treaty and convinced them to vote against – they were just one of a few citizens online on IRC. If there had been non-UDLers on the channel that I thought I could convince, I would have talked to them too. Most of the UDL is very upset I would aggressively attack TNI like this in public since for many people, I represent them and it’s very easy to conflate my behavior with the rest of the organization’s behavior. I'm the head of the UDL for being its founder and doing a lot of the work to keep it running, not because of my political savviness-- unfortunately in my bullheadedness I did something stupid and now people are, I think, unfairly drawing a line to a group of people that mostly supported TNI treaty and generally thinks I was out of line too. I apologize if it appears as through there is some sort of connection or conspiracy afoot, I can understand the genuine concerns for the region's sovereignty, I respect that concern -- I fight all the time for regional sovereignty, but there was no organized complicity whatsoever. I told Southern Bellz I’d work on a UDL policy, but for the time being, since I think this was mostly an individual’s mistake (i.e., mine), I pledge not to vote on stuff involving defending/raiding or TNI or Rachel for that matter nor get involved with any sort of lobbying. I’ll just take a break from the Assembly for that week and eat a kit kat bar instead. I’m sorry for abusing your trust and I’m sorry for bringing my personal feuds into my home here and undermining its spirit of joviality. Yours,Uni

[A mean old man]

Better late than never, Uni. I do appreciate this, though it hasn't changed the fact that I'm not at all happy with how this played out. I await the response from the UDL (more patiently than I have awaited this response from you).

[Unibot]

Better late than never, Uni. I do appreciate this, though it hasn't changed the fact that I'm not at all happy with how this played out. I await the response from the UDL (more patiently than I have awaited this response from you).

You mean the new UDL policy? I'm still mulling over how to implement it. It's not an easy system to create probably because this is more about protecting regions when their own systems of attaining citizenship aren't tough enough to actually legitimize people as citizens in the general public's eye. Since a lot of the problem from this dispute is stemming from people not viewing Mahaj, Solm or Fisch as "real" citizens and therefore not trusting them to vote responsibly. I don't want to implement a policy that is going to, say, disenfranchise a hard-working, contributing member of a region for half of a decade like Eluvatar in TNP. EDIT: I think what you might see is a program specific to TSP since obviously UDLers are clustering in TSP because that's where their friends are and TSP has a pretty strict history and tradition of neutrality. If other cases emerge like TSP then we would develop a similar program tailored for that region.

[LadyRebels]

Better late than never, Uni. I do appreciate this, though it hasn't changed the fact that I'm not at all happy with how this played out. I await the response from the UDL (more patiently than I have awaited this response from you).

Do you mean the individual members of the UDL that are also citizens of TSP? because honestly as founder and leader of the UDL you did get a response from Unibot.

[Southern Bellz]

Thanks for the apology. I do have to say I feel that an apology is jus the first step in this process, but at least it gives us a place to start, and I know this was an issue that made you upset, so I am glad you are coming to us in a calmer manner. I don't buy the idea that you just happened to lobby to UDL TSPers because they were the only ones that happened to be online. From what you told me, you told the real story to UDL TSPers, while you told other stories in the assembly. That isnt just stumbling upon the people who happened to be online, thats telling a story to people who would be naturally sympathetic to your cause, while fear mongering in TSP, AND it makes it a semi-coordinated UDL effort. Plus I don't get why this was all behind closed doors and in PMs when the forum and public TSP channel was always in debate over this.I think as soon as your went to lobby to UDL only TSPers you made this more than a personal problem, you made it an organizational problem, and thus it requires organizational action.Like AMOM, I am awaiting the organization's official response to this, and I will not be satisfied is they write it all off as a personal problem, and then promising that the person who lacked judgement will take a break for a week and continue on. That is hardly taking accountability, imo.

[Southern Bellz]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' data-author="A mean old man">Better late than never, Uni. I do appreciate this, though it hasn't changed the fact that I'm not at all happy with how this played out. I await the response from the UDL (more patiently than I have awaited this response from you).

You mean the new UDL policy? I'm still mulling over how to implement it. It's not an easy system to create probably because this is more about protecting regions when their own systems of attaining citizenship aren't tough enough to actually legitimize people as citizens in the general public's eye. Since a lot of the problem from this dispute is stemming from people not viewing Mahaj, Solm or Fisch as "real" citizens and therefore not trusting them to vote responsibly. I don't want to implement a policy that is going to, say, disenfranchise a hard-working, contributing member of a region for half of a decade like Eluvatar in TNP. EDIT: I think what you might see is a program specific to TSP since obviously UDLers are clustering in TSP because that's where their friends are and TSP has a pretty strict history and tradition of neutrality. If other cases emerge like TSP then we would develop a similar program tailored for that region.
</blockquote>Ok you dont get to make a half baked apology here Unibot. Don't start acting like UDLers are the victims here. If UDLers don't want to be called out on looking out for UDL interests, dont have private chats lobbying for UDL interests, its that simple. The fact that a second after you apologize for this you are already playing the victim shows me that you don't feel sorry for anything you did.In a democracy people are held democratically accountable, and calling someone out for what they did isn't being a bully.

[Mahaj]

From what you told me, you told the real story to UDL TSPers, while you told other stories in the assembly.

I am very curious about this real story. Do share.