Regarding Lazarus

[Belschaft]

Noting the continued promotion of Milograd within Lazarus, the repeated refusal of our treaty allies to meet the requirements of our alliance (specifically Article 3), the purging from the region of those members who did support fulfilling said treaty duties, the adoption of the criminal regime 'The SPSR' under a new name in Lazarus, and the general contempt for TSP this all shows, I request the Assembly repeal the Lazarus-TSP treaty. The alliance is already dead in all but name; even where it not, the general lack of good faith on the part of Lazarus would have made it inoperable.

[StGeorgie]

Will we also be asked to declare them illegitimate?

[Sandaoguo]

I think this is a bit of an overreaction. Regarding Article 3, we reached an understanding with Lazarus over Milograd. To turn around now and press the issue, especially when Lazarus isn't under any obligations to remove Milograd from the region (since he completed his sentence), would be hypocritical of us.

 

It's also pretty ridiculous to think that their adoption of a Marxist-Leninist theme is disrespectful to TSP. That theme is not limited to the short-lived Milograd coup. Lazarus changing its governing theme has nothing to do with us. I think perhaps you're just taking things too personally.

 

Is it unreasonable to believe that the Lazarus-TSP treaty is on a shaky foundation exactly because of these types of reactions? This is another in a long line of taking the game too personally. We need to start taking personal feelings out of this and start thinking in terms of our strategic interests. What case is there to be made that maintaining the treaty is costly for us?

[StGeorgie]

Damn. Is it snowing in  hell or something? I actually... agree with GR.

[Drugged Monkeys]

Can't we try and have a council meeting between our cabinet and theirs to discuss our future relations before we make such a drastic move?

[Hileville]

I can't support this at this time.

[Brutland and Norden]

Closing the in-game embassies was premature. Nevertheless, the action already damaged relations between TSP and Lazarus.

 

I believe that this region's foreign affairs is going the wrong way. This is an overreaction with regards to a change in government and forum theme. As I had objected to the government's action against Osiris, so I will object to the government's action against Lazarus. If they want to be dictatorial and communist, or dictatorial with rainbow sheep, it is their choice. We already fixed relations with the dictatorial GCR regime with bunnies, so it's not as if we're consistent in severing relations with dictatorial regions.

 

That said, it's not Lazarus' loss, but rather TSP's. We have damaged relations with half of the GCRs (TP, TWP, Osiris, Lazarus). If ever, we should be repairing them and rebuilding them, rather than severing and damaging them at will. Like I said, severing relations is easy, repairing them is difficult.

[Letoilenoir]

Given the parlous state of the army probably not expedient to be cutting ties with anyone at the moment

[Kris Kringle]

Breaking relations with Lazarus doesn't mean that we will go to war with them. Lazarus has not attacked us and thus I don't see a reason to be in conflict with them. That being said, the closing of embassies is currently the subject of a Cabinet discussion to produce a clear policy stance on the matter.

[QuietDad]

Closing of the embassy is a done deal according to the region page in game. Don't remember a discussion/debate/vote on this decision and it's too late for one now. That being said, I feel we're becoming the USSR in the 70s and the USA today trying to dictate our will on other regions. Closing embassies just makes it harder to continue dialog. 

The reality is Milograd will be in the game for a long time bouncing from region to region and if we sever ties with everyone of them, there will be no allies left. We should have embassies with EVERY GCR because they are what we are and tied into us whether we like it or not. Issues with Lazurus can be dangerous because this is where nations get refounded and once refounded it might come here. If it was here before, this looks perfectly natural and who knows what their intentions are. You don't want to be on their bad side.

[Kris Kringle]

Closing of the embassy is a done deal according to the region page in game. Don't remember a discussion/debate/vote on this decision and it's too late for one now. That being said, I feel we're becoming the USSR in the 70s and the USA today trying to dictate our will on other regions. Closing embassies just makes it harder to continue dialog.

That is the problem. There wasn't prior consultation, the Delegate just closed embassies without consulting the Minister of Foreign Affairs, let alone the Cabinet or the rest of the region. One can't make foreign policy decisions based on personal and unilateral appreciations.

[Belschaft]

The 'Agreement' that existed between TSP and Lazarus was essentially us choosing to ignore the fact that Lazarus was in breach of our treaty. That is something that successive Delegates, first B&N, then SB, and finally myself choose to do out of a desire to preserve the relationship between the two regions. It was a course of action that I endorsed when we were under Milograd's occupation, when the situation was that if we pressed the matter then Lazarus would break the treaty rather than obey it. It was also an agreement that originated when he was a mere private citizen in Lazarus - since then he has been repeatedly promoted, despite Lazarus' legal duty to remove him. In the same time period, those Lazarene members who advocated for Lazarus meeting their treaty duties to us have all been purged. I was happy to support the agreement when he was a citizen, I even went so far as to maintain it when he was made the second highest ranking member of their region - despite how uncomfortable this made me. Milograd is the greatest criminal in the history of our region, and his actions are such that typically lead to a general ostracism within the GCR community - even TP acknowledged that he could not remain in their government. Our nominal ally, Lazarus, has acted in a manner contradictory to that of a friend, never mind ally. We overlooked that, and in response they have given him more and more power in their region. I cannot overlook the decision to adopt the SPSR government, right down to using the same forum skin, in Lazarus.

 

The situation is this; Lazarus is in breach of our alliance and is not willing to come into compliance. We have been ignoring this. I am no longer willing to do so.

 

Due to Lazarus' breach of our treaty, specifically Article 3, I no longer consider it to be in force nor do I consider TSP to be bound by it. I merely request the Assembly recognize this reality.

[Letoilenoir]

Bel,

 

I don't think that any question your reasons, more the manner in which the decision was made.

True, a delegate should act in line with his convictions, and should also expect the cabinet to stand with him and endorse his decision, even if they may not fully support it.  However consultation would have been advisable if only to scope out the ramifications and the available course of action to take.  

[QuietDad]

So you abolish the treaty but leave the embassy intact for communications. You're the delegate and I stand behind you and your actions. Doesn't mean I have to agree with them.

[Belschaft]

There is no doubt I acted rashly and in anger in response to seeing them using the SPSR skin, and for that I apologize. I have canceled the embassy closure.

[Sandaoguo]

The 'Agreement' that existed between TSP and Lazarus was essentially us choosing to ignore the fact that Lazarus was in breach of our treaty. That is something that successive Delegates, first B&N, then SB, and finally myself choose to do out of a desire to preserve the relationship between the two regions. It was a course of action that I endorsed when we were under Milograd's occupation, when the situation was that if we pressed the matter then Lazarus would break the treaty rather than obey it. It was also an agreement that originated when he was a mere private citizen in Lazarus - since then he has been repeatedly promoted, despite Lazarus' legal duty to remove him.

Lazarus has no duty to remove Milograd! There were two trials, and Milograd has finished his punishments for both. It's too late now to demand Lazarus remove Milograd from the region, when the entire TSP government basically agreed with Lazarus that they didn't have to. You can't just change your mind on that later on down the road, after punishments have been doled out and completed. That is hypocrisy and harms the credibility of TSP leadership in any future backroom discussions.
 

Milograd is the greatest criminal in the history of our region, and his actions are such that typically lead to a general ostracism within the GCR community - even TP acknowledged that he could not remain in their government.

Coups do not universally lead to ostracism within every single GCR. There are many people who conducted coups who are still welcome in pretty much all the GCRs, and indeed form the core security establishment of at least one GCR. Milograd did something other coupers never do: he accepted punishment; he apologized. Who are we to deny Lazarus an repentant, very active citizen? We can ostracize Milograd from TSP, but it's a bit too much to require all other GCRs to do the same.
 

Due to Lazarus' breach of our treaty, specifically Article 3, I no longer consider it to be in force nor do I consider TSP to be bound by it. I merely request the Assembly recognize this reality.

I for one do not recognize this "reality." I think it's ridiculous to tell Lazarus that it's okay for them to not exercise Article 3, then turn around and dissolve relations a few months later for them not exercising Article 3. This is all a huge, hypocritical overreaction to Lazarus adopting the Marxist-Leninist theme which Milograd has been using long before he couped our region. (Update: Thank you for apologizing about the overreaction! It happens, but it's important to recognize it as soon as possible, so we don't go overboard.)

This discussion shouldn't even be happening in "public." It's bad to see these Cabinet disagreements being displayed to the region and any foreigners with citizenship of convenience. As far as I know, none of us were made aware that you were withdrawing the enemy, and you didn't consult any of us before declaring Lazarus-TSP relations dead in the NS Gameplay forum. For somebody who decries unilateral executive action, this is very surprising.

[QuietDad]

I disagree with not having a public discussion about it. This is the Assembly and every citizen is a member of the Assembly. A private conversation with Cabinet BEFORE he pulled the trigger would have been appropriate, put a public outcry against it is a PUBLIC out cry. I respect the apology by Belschaft and the canceling of the termination of the Embassy. Now would be the time to start the "What do we so about Lazurus?" discussion thread.

[Drugged Monkeys]

I am all for the Delegate making rash decisions when necessary for the good of the region, but when these decisions are made based on personal vendetta I have serious issues with it. As a long serving member of the cabinet this is not the first time I have seen you act in this manner Belschaft. I also see your decisions and answers to them as hypocritical seeing as how when others do these things you cry unconstitutional.


With that being said, I formally resign from my Minister of the Army cabinet position. Based on my activity levels I cannot fulfill my role as a Cabinet member and leader of the NSA. I was hoping to reinsert my self back into the NSA full force to try and ramp up its activity before I handed it off at next elections, but after assessing the situation of this current cabinet and how things are going I cannot remain as a part of it. This cabinet, this region, myself included, need to seriously assess the dire situation we are slowly spiraling toward.


If anyone has any questions please feel free to PM me.

[Escade]

What is the dire situation that we are spiraling towards? I'd like to know...

[Awesomiasa]

While it is sad to see DM leave the Cabinet, I cannot deny the fact that he's been a good MoA. Perhaps it was only the plague of inactivity that had him struggling to keep abreast of Cabinet and regional affairs.

 

That said, I'd have liked if the Delegate had conferred with, at the very least, the MoA, on the closure of Lazarus' embassy, which has fortunately been reversed. We can only wait and continue to monitor the actions that the Lazarus government takes, before taking any further drastic actions.

[Belschaft]

As I said above, I acted rashly in a moment of anger. My actions were quite legal but not in keeping with how I think TSP should be governed, and I reversed the cancellation when I logged back in when calmer.

 

I have no interest in pretending that Lazarus is still a TSP ally however. They are not, except on paper.

[QuietDad]

Ally or not, the embassy should remain as a place to start/continue dialog to repair things. It all worked out and we're where we should be with the world. Again, as a former Staff Sergeant in the USMC, I stand behind the delegate.

[DICTATORSHIP OF SURVIVORS]

Puting other things asset, good luck with the real life DM, hope u well!

[Southern Bellz]

We need to reflect on our foreign affairs. I want to see bridges built instead of burned.

I think with a shift of focus in fighting hate groups, we can find new allies on ideology.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

[Belschaft]

Generally speaking building bridges is preferable to burning them, but we must also consider what a relationship is worth to us. If there are no circumstances under which we are willing to end an alliance then we are in effect a hostage to the other party and their actions. Regarding Lazarus that was essentially the case; we ignored or otherwise overlooked things we objected to so as to maintain the alliance. The end result was that Lazarus kept acting in ways contrary to our interests and in contradiction to both the spirit and the letter of our treaty.

 

I see room for positive diplomatic efforts in a number of areas. We have strong alliances with Balder and TNP, who's Delegates are interested in working together closely. We also have alliances with UCR powers like TNI and Euro who we could cooperate with more closely in military matters, and considering the current issues we have with the NSA may be able to help us get it running properly again. There is also room for further rapprochement with TP, TRR and even TWP - I've been considering a proposal I want to put before the cabinet in regards to the last one. Osiris is still a complicated situation, but the region is making progress to where we need them to be before we can normalize relations. Further, in the last couple of days Kringalia and myself have been looking into opening relations with Capitalist Paradise, who are the up and coming UCR power.