Assembly Repeals Osiris Treaty

[Hileville]

Assembly Repeals Treaty with Osiris

 

Downtown South Pacific...

 

After a heated debate in the Assembly which resulted in a Court Review, The South Pacific-Osiris Treaty has been repealed.  The final vote tally resulted in 13 in favor, 1 opposed, and 2 abstentions getting the necessary 60% majority for the measure to pass.  Debate began on the future of the current Osiris treaty days after Detective Figs dissolved the Kemetic Republic of Osiris.

 

The initial discussion in the Assembly was brought to the floor by former Delegate Hileville stating that keeping the current treaty for the new government would set a bad precedent for future situations.  A debate then broke out on how a treaty is repealed as the Charter language isn't clear by only stating that a treaty is passed with a 60% majority in favor.  This led Sandaoguo, Chair of the Assembly, to file a request for a review with the Court.  Chief Justice Southern Bellz ruled a treaty can be repealed by the same process.

 

Many at that time thought this would bring the end of discussions and a vote on the repeal but it wasn't that simple.  The specific language of the repeal needed additional discussion to hammer the finer details.  The Assembly finally agreed on the below language and voting began.

 

Preamble

 

The Assembly of the Coalition of The South Pacific, acting as the sole legislative authority of the Coalition, carrying out its duties regarding the maintenance treaties, hereby adopts the following repeal of the Osiris-TSP Treaty.

 
Article 1: Discoveries


1. The regions of The South Pacific and Osiris entered into a treaty in March 2012, recognizing the importance of unity between Game-Created Regions,


2. The Osiris-TSP Treaty emphasizes the sole recognition of the legitimate governments of both regions,


3. On September 15, 2013, the nation Detective Figs (also known as “Astarial” and “Asta”) engaged in a coup d’etat of the legitimate government of Osiris, in the midst of a constitutional convention,


4. The Cabinet of the The Coalition of The South Pacific released a statement on September 18, 2013, expressing its concern over the actions of Detective Figs and other prominent members of Osiris, particularly regarding the concentration of power towards the new regime,


5. The aforementioned statement predicated the support of The South Pacific for the new Osiris regime on the new regime being a temporary trustee that would guide Osiris to a return of constitutional government and address the frequent instability issues of the region,


6. The new regime released a set of “Ground Rules” that appeared to be a long-term vision for the regime to stay in power, in contradiction to the initial understanding that Detective Figs would not remain in power permanently,


7. The new regime lost the support of important and prominent members of Osiris,


8. The above events cause great concern to the Assembly of The Coalition of The South Pacific regarding the continued stability of Osiris,

Article 2: Conclusions

1. The new regime of Osiris led by Detective Figs is not the legitimate government of Osiris.


2. There is an obligation for The South Pacific to recognize only the legitimate governments of Game-Created Regions.

Article 3: Formal Repeal of the Osiris-TSP Treaty

Due to the unfortunate events of September 15, 2013, and troubling developments thereafter, the Assembly of The Coalition of The South repeals the Osiris-TSP Treaty.
 

 

 

It is unclear what the future for the once great alliance between the South Pacific and Osiris will hold.  Osiris is working on building a new structure for their Government and the South Pacific keeps hammering on.

 

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SPINN is an independent, non-governmental entity. Any views or opinions presented in articles are solely those of the author(s) and do not necessarily represent the views or the endorsement of the Government of the South Pacific. Any concerns or clarifications are to be addressed to the author(s) of the article or the Editor-in-Chief.

[Frattastan]

If it no longer recognises Detective Figs's government, why does TSP still keep diplomatic relations with them (in-game embassy + forum embassy)?

[Frattastan]

Ignorers.

[StGeorgie]

Because they're only now just realising that calling the Osiris regime illegitimate was a mistake.

 

It's ruined any chance of future relations for the foreseeable future. It's also confirmed that the speaker will use the legislature as a means to advance his defender causes (ironically when Unibot tried to do this he was chased from TSP by an armed mob).

[Kris Kringle]

Because they're only now just realising that calling the Osiris regime illegitimate was a mistake.

 

It's ruined any chance of future relations for the foreseeable future. It's also confirmed that the speaker will use the legislature as a means to advance his defender causes (ironically when Unibot tried to do this he was chased from TSP by an armed mob).

 

The South Pacific has no quarrell with the region of Osiris but we do have issues with the legitimacy of the current government. Thus, we have every right to not want to have binding commitments with it and still maintain friendly relations through our embassies. Just because someone disagrees with your views it doesn't mean that they are having outside or undue influence. It just means that we follow different policies, and our has consistently been that governments cannot be abolished without prior consultation to the People, unless that government operates in a caretaker capacity and for a brief amount of time.

[StGeorgie]

You cannot maintain friendly relations with a regime you've just declared illegitimate. The two positions are opposites.

[Kris Kringle]

Quoting myself: The South Pacific has no quarrel with the region of Osiris but we do have issues with the legitimacy of the current government.

 

It is perfectly reasonable to want to have friendly or at least have decent relations with a region and not want to have a written commitment with its government. Region and government aren't the same. Cabinet and Assembly members have repeatedly said that they consider Osiris a friendly region and hope to negotiate a new treaty when the conditions are appropriate, read the Assembly debates. More than one Cabinet member either voted in favour while supporting a future treaty or abstained because the repeal didn't provide for future negotiations for a treaty.

We have not terminated relations with Osiris nor have we declared them a hostile region. We have just declared that we don't consider its government to be in the best interests of its People, and thus we prefer not to have a written commitment with said government. I am fairly confident that TSP-Osiris relations are strong enough to withstand the repeal.

[Frattastan]

However, it'd be more accurate to say that embassies are used for communication between governments, not regions.

If the government led by Detective Figs isn't the legitimate ruler of Osiris, can their ambassadors still represent the region abroad? Who is entitled to represent Osiris abroad?

 

Not meaning to stir up trouble here, and I am around only as an observer. I understand the decision to repeal the treaty, and I would even understand a decision to stop recognising the government and suspend relations, it's the declaration of the current Delegate/government as illegitimate while at the same time keeping embassies open that has me genuinely confused.

[Awesomiasa]

I do predict that the Assembly will shut Embassies in due time. (Just my personal opinion, not confirmed by the Assembly/Cabinet/SPINN etc)

[Sandaoguo]

However, it'd be more accurate to say that embassies are used for communication between <em class='bbc'>governments</em>, not regions.

If the government led by Detective Figs isn't the legitimate ruler of Osiris, can their ambassadors still represent the region abroad? <em class='bbc'>Who</em> is entitled to represent Osiris abroad?

Embassies are the only formal form of communication between regions. They're a diplomatic tool, not a representation of alliance. We didn't impose diplomatic sanctions on Osiris. We repealed a mutual defense treaty following a major and controversial governmental change in an allied region that caused worry in the minds of TSP government. This wasn't just a transition to a new administration in Osiris, but a complete unilateral dismantling of the entire regional governing structure. We weren't consulted beforehand and we weren't reassured after the fact. It's unsurprising that TSP wouldn't be comfortable maintaining a military alliance with any region under those circumstances.



Osiris and the broader Nationstates community shouldn't read this as a cessation of diplomatic relations. In the real world, even the worst of enemies maintain diplomatic relations. The Cabinet released a statement weeks ago on the events in Osiris and the policy implications of that statement still apply, as far as I'm concerned. We would like to work with Osiris to bring back constitutional government. As such, we haven't dissolved relations with them. (Belschaft is even a member of the new legislative council.) We simply removed ourselves from a military alliance that we found difficult to commit to under the circumstances.



Given that our embassy on their forums is the only sure way to communicate formally with Osiris because if their highly restrictive forum permissions setup, I don't think removal of mutual embassies should or will occur through our actions. Nobody here believes Osiris is an enemy or thinks TSP-Osiris relations are completely cut, and I get the impression that most in Osiris share that view.



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[Frattastan]

 
We simply removed ourselves from a military alliance that we found difficult to commit to under the circumstances.

 

TNP did the same, yes. But, you also declared the Osiran government "illegitimate".

 

 

In the real world, even the worst of enemies maintain diplomatic relations.

 

In the real world, States don't maintain diplomatic relations with entities they consider illegitimate.

[Sandaoguo]

TNP did the same, yes. But, you also declared the Osiran government "illegitimate".

Yes, we did, for the reasons outlined in the repeal. The largest reason for me was that Asta had crafted a new government to keep herself in power, when I was personally told by several people throughout the night of the coup that Asta would be in power only so long as it took to write a new constitution. To me, that meant the regime couldn't be trusted, that they weren't a worthwhile partner going forward. The way to fix that would be to establish structure and a clear rule of law. I was not comfortable with a dictatorial empress who didn't even have a cogent view of Osiris foreign policy. There was no rule of law and the plan that was put forth was opposed by Biyah, who isn't exactly known for his love of democracy. When he opposed the regime, I knew that it had legitimacy problems.

In the real world, States don't maintain diplomatic relations with entities they consider illegitimate.

Sure they do! For an extreme example, several western democracies have diplomatic relations with North Korea. Diplomacy is a tool of communication, not a symbol of political or military alliance. We want to keep communication lines open with Osiris, since most of us envision a return to alliance once our concerns are allayed. I would like for Osiris to use our embassy and take advantage of the help the Cabinet offered in returning Osiris to constitutional government. If they do that is their choice, of course, but we offered the help, so it wouldn't make sense for us to cut off all relations.



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[Frattastan]

Sure they do! For an extreme example, several western democracies have diplomatic relations with North Korea.

 

That's because they recognise the DPRK's claim of statehood as legitimate.

[Sandaoguo]

Eh, I don't know about that... The point is that embassies are communication tools, not institutions of alliance. There's no inconsistency in maintaining our embassies while passing the treaty repeal. We need to have some formal way of bilateral communication, instead of relying on backdoor channels like IRC and private messages.

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[Diamete]

 I'll just state a few facts as i see them.

Yes it is your right to end a treaty with us, when you want.

The Osiris government does not need any regions permission to switch government  styles.

Osirian's are in the middle of changing the government  to be in the best interests of its people.

 

@GR if embassies are communication tools, why didn't you contact me??????

 

 

 

[Lord Ravenclaw]

So, you've branded a government illegitimate yet continue to recognise it as the government of Osiris by maintaining diplomatic relations and communication via the embassies?

 

Me thinks that someone didn't think their foreign policy through very well.

[Southern Bellz]

Why would a treaty with one government automatically apply to a new one.

This is such a basic procedural issue that I am shocked at the outrage.

Osi didn't have a problem with this style of goverance when we didn't automatically support the GV puppet government.

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[Dalimbar]

Although I am not currently participating in Asta's government (besides serving as one of the forum admins), I too would like to know who The South Pacific regards as legitimate? If not Asta, then who?

[StGeorgie]

Why would a treaty with one government automatically apply to a new one.


This is such a basic procedural issue that I am shocked at the outrage.


Osi didn't have a problem with this style of goverance when we didn't automatically support the GV puppet government.


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The 'outrage' comes from the treaty being between Osiris and TSP. Asta's actions were supported by the citizenry of Osiris at the time, the Plebiscite Belschaft demanded shows that. I think a lot of it is that people don't understand why the current regime was declared to be illegitimate.

 

The dissolution of the treaty is understandable. It's why we have no objection or problem with TNP doing the same thing. But it's when you take into account the wording of the repeal document here that it starts to... cause problems, for want of a better phrase. I would like to hear Hileville's reasoning for seconding the draft he did, as opposed to one of those which didn't declare the current regime illegitimate.

[Lord Ravenclaw]

The South Pacific has branded the current Osiran Government as illegitimate. Unless you have a "legitimate" government under your collective hat somewhere, then there is no "legitimate" government of Osiris, unless you plan to recognise The Dourian Embassy as Pharaoh and Osiris as a colony of Gatesville Inc and say that Cormac and Asta usurped the Delegacy.

 

Perhaps some, such as myself are being vocal because you've branded a government illegitimate for no apparent reason. You claim that your treaty was with the Kemetic Republic. Yet, it was not mentioned inside the treaty, I should know, I have a copy of it on the site I made when I was Vizier of Foreign Affairs for nine months in Osiris - http://osiris.lordravenclaw.com/fa/?p=92 (Interestingly, it was I who wrote the statement of support for The South Pacific during Milograd's Coup in April/May.)

 

What do you use to determine the legitimacy of the government? The forums? The Delegate? 

 

The West Pacific recognises the power of the sitting delegate.

The South Pacific recognised the power of the delegate as determined by the off-site forum.

The offsite forum for Osiris was considered the legitimate home of the regional government.

 

Thus far, The South Pacific has rejected BOTH of those processes. So how do you recognise a delegate?

 

Osiris recognised the off-site forum of The South Pacific, this one, during Milograd's coup. We supported the Coalition in reclaiming the region. Yet, when someone who was elected - Asta WAS elected as Vice Delegate, took over the delegacy upon the resignation of the Pharaoh and Delegate, she was empowered to invoke change in the region. Said change was then supported by a forum vote at the urging of a citizen of the region - where the region had the highest -ever- turnout for a referendum/vote/poll yet seen in Osiris.

 

The Off Site forum has NOT changed. The style of Government has. Yet no other forum exists as a home for the region that has actually been used for the region; unless you count Usiris, see above.

 

I'm very interested to see how The South Pacific expects to continue relations with a fellow GCR despite ignoring two processes on recognising legitimacy and insulting their entire government by calling them illegitimate.

[Sandaoguo]

I'll just state a few facts as i see them.

Yes it is your right to end a treaty with us, when you want.

The Osiris government does not need any regions permission to switch government styles.

Osirian's are in the middle of changing the government to be in the best interests of its people.

Certainly Osiris has the right to self determination. However, you're painting a rosy picture there. Osiris didn't simply change its government. An unelected person unilaterally dissolved the Constitution in the middle of a convention and declared herself empress. It had the trappings of another coup in a long string of coups in the region. We were not told what was going on, and actually what we were eventually told ended up being untrue. So let's not rewrite history here. The whole ordeal was controversial for a reason.

@GR if embassies are communication tools, why didn't you contact me??????

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. The Cabinet communicated through our statement. I was in contact with people in Osiris the night of the coup and for several days after.



Are you asking why I didn't communicate with anybody while the Assembly was debating repeal? The answer to that is really simple. It's not my job. I'm neither an ambassador nor the foreign minister. Although the debate occurred in the private assembly forums, people knew what we were talking about. I doubt there was zero communication going on, given the dual membership of our delegate.



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[Southern Bellz]

The ' legitimacy' of an Osiris government lied with the previous government via a signed treaty.  

 

The whole reason we repealed this treaty was to be able to legally open diplomatic channels with the new government.  We were bound to support any remnants of the old government. While I just wanted a clean repeal, I also did vote for the statement drafted because I took the wording to be that the new government did not have de facto legitimacy in the eyes of The South Pacific, not as an insult to the people of Osiris.

 

It should be noted, that despite a radically change in government, there was no embassy update or embassy application from the new government of Osiris.  This was a coup that for the time leading up to it, started out as an inside joke.  The whole thing was very confusing, and the free nations of The South Pacific were being told by our delegate that they were in communication with you guys.

 

So you can be hurt by this, but recognize that this government has always historically acted to support a government which is backed by the citizens of Osiris.  Our efforts in this repeal/statement was an effort to free us up to form relations with the new government, while not lending them any legitimacy (in case this was an unwanted takeover) via our support as the situation has been developing.

 

How about instead of hurling insults as some of us who have been trying to help, you take this opportunity to educate the nations of The South Pacific what is going on?  If you want to speak to the assembly, you have an audience, but we were told by our leaders that you guys were communicated with, and we have seen no public effort on your part to educate us.

[Belschaft]

*sighs*

 

I continue to be in communication with Asta, who I have been assured is the person to discuss TSP-Osiris relations with. I will be basing my decisions and conclusions upon these discussions.

 

....

 

More generally speaking, the only government of Osiris which TSP recognized was and is The Kemetic Republic. The alliance between TSP and Osiris was signed by the Delegates of The Coalition and The Kemetic Republic. The Kemetic Republic no longer exists; it was dissolved unilaterally by executive fiat. This was not a constitutional action on the part of Asta, nor was it something that The Cabinet approved of, as we made clear in our statement of 18th of September. However we made it abundantly clear that we were willing to support Asta's regime, but with the understanding that it was transitional and with the expectation of a new constitution and new elections. This continues to be the official opinion and desire of The Cabinet.

 

At no point has The Coalition recognized Asta's regime as the legitimate government of Osiris. I am sorry if you believed that this has occurred, but it has not. We continue to operate in a state of flux until such time as Osiris establishes a constitutional successor to The Kemetic Republic; until then there is not a government for us to recognize as legitimate.

 

On the 3rd of October The Assembly adopted a resolution which re-iterated several of these points, most importantly that The Coalition does not recognize Asta's regime as the KRO's legitimate successor. Further, and against the advice of The Cabinet, it revoked the treaty on the grounds that the KRO no longer exists. My preferred position was to suspend the treaty and later renegotiate it with the KRO's successor, maintaining continuity (keeping the same alliance with the KRO and it's replacement), but The Assembly disagreed. Their preference was for a clean repeal, rather than a nebulous situation where we would be allied with a region but not the government of said region, which was the case prior to the Assembly's declaration and treaty repeal.

 

Now, I'm really not entirely sure what Osiris wants of us here. George seems to want to use TSP as some kind of public enemy for his own political advantage, but I'm ignoring him for reasons stated elsewhere - anyone who accuses Hileville of all people of being a UDL stooge is either insane, trolling or full of bullshit so I don't think that's unreasonable. TSP expressed our support for Osiris nearly a month ago, within certain conditions. Those conditions have not changed. We are not going to recognize as legitimate a regime created by a Delegate dissolving the constitution by personal fiat. That was, unless you've forgotten, what Douria tried to do. Obviously this situation is very different which is why we have been supporting Asta's regime, but at the end of the day the principles in question are largely the same.

 

TSP's ally, The Kemetic Republic of Osiris, no longer exists. We await a constitutional successor to be established whom we can recognize, and hope that we will enjoy similar relations with it to those we had with The KRO. We understand and expect that said constitutional successor is likely to emerge from the current transitional regime headed by Astarial, and continue to support said regime and the process within Osiris that it is overseeing.

 

That was our position on the 18th of September. It is still our position now.

[Belschaft]

Further, and I am quoting Lord Ravenclaw here;

 

 

 

This comes from a region which Osiris supported not long ago, and didn't ask for anything in return because we placed our faith in the value of a treaty.

 

And when Osiris in turn was couped by Douria, TSP did all we could to liberate her in turn. Do the names Penguin, Comrade Troy, Rebel-topia, Awesomiasa, Loh, Drugged Monkey's, Alv, Estoric and Hileville mean anything to you? They are the names of the nine members of the NSA who deployed to Osiris. Cormac claims TSP deployed just one soldier to Osiris when she was in need. This is a lie. He further claims that during the Milograd coup of TSP we did nothing to defend ourselves, and instead relied on UDL, TNP and Osiris to do so for us. This is another lie.

 

I have no interest in dealing with liars, yet it seems I have little choice. Too many Osirans are believing the lies that has spewed forth from the mouths of George and Cormac, at a time when TSP continues to support Osiris. I have lost track of the many things they have accused me of in the last few days, but I have not now or ever been a liar. I say once more, TSP continues to support Osiris. I dare them to call me a liar.

[Diamete]

@ GR You sound like a player called "Freedom and Pride" i used to know.

 

I still stand by my Rosie perception, and nobody is gonna change my mind.

 

Both regions have the right to do what they want, maybe something will come out of it, maybe not.