Lazarus

[Kris Kringle]

Got this TG from Milograd. I don't think we need to step in as Harm will soon resume being Delegate, and also I think that he has misread the terms of the treaty, as Lazarus has neither been couped nor invaded, but rather this was a Delegate mistake, but still I just want to leave it on record.


 

Milograd


3 hours ago


Hi Kringalia. My region is presently in need of assistance -- our delegate accidentally resigned -- and I sent Bel a request for such. He hasn't yet responded but has been online. I'd like to ask you as MoFA whether or not we can expect support militarily or diplomatically -- Lazarus has a treaty with TSP and presently TSP is not fulfilling article four of our treaty, which is disappointing to say the least. I realize that I'm not TSP's favorite person, but a treaty is a treaty and they exist so that both parties can assist each other during situations like this. Thank you. We await your response. ~ Milograd


 

Thoughts on this?

[Belschaft]

Lazarus was and is in breach of Article 3 of the treaty, so to hell with them.

[Sandaoguo]

Lazarus was and is in breach of Article 3 of the treaty, so to hell with them.

 

Are we talking about Milograd? I don't know if he was in Lazarus while he was couping here (I think he was), but in either case, I think the agreement we reached with the NPO in addition to him completing his sentence (the apology) mean he's no longer subject to those kinds of treaty obligations.

 

I'm not sure TSP could have provided any military support, anyways. What exactly did Milo want us to do diplomatically? Nobody was accusing anybody of a coup, and there isn't a political element to this at all.

 

Generally, our allies shouldn't expect us to automatically engage in anything. We really need to discuss expectations, capabilities, strategy, etc. before fulfilling our treaty military obligations. These aren't automatic systems. They're bilateral agreements, so we need bilateral communication to enforce them.

[Kris Kringle]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' data-author="Belschaft" data-cid="106108" data-time="1380830446">Lazarus was and is in breach of Article 3 of the treaty, so to hell with them.

Are we talking about Milograd? I don't know if he was in Lazarus while he was couping here (I think he was), but in either case, I think the agreement we reached with the NPO in addition to him completing his sentence (the apology) mean he's no longer subject to those kinds of treaty obligations.



I'm not sure TSP could have provided any military support, anyways. What exactly did Milo want us to do diplomatically? Nobody was accusing anybody of a coup, and there isn't a political element to this at all.



Generally, our allies shouldn't expect us to automatically engage in anything. We really need to discuss expectations, capabilities, strategy, etc. before fulfilling our treaty military obligations. These aren't automatic systems. They're bilateral agreements, so we need bilateral communication to enforce them.
</blockquote>


Well in all fairness Milograd did try to overthrow the Coalition and he is residing in Lazarus, so they are in violation of the treaty.

I did mention at the beginning of my original post that I did not think we should intervene in the first place, so I have no objections with both of your positions.

[Belschaft]

Milograd was resident in Lazarus during his coup; a couple of Lazarus citizens (now purged) attempted to have him removed in accordance with the treaty but were outvoted. As such we didn't press the issue; it had been made clear to us in private that Lazarus would not meet their requirements, and we didn't think rocking the boat midst coup was a clever idea. Since then the situation has been that we don't press the issue and Lazarus doesn't have to renege on the treaty.

 

Milograd criticizing us for non-compliance is thus incredibly hypocritical.

[Rebel-topia]

I find Milo coming to us for help kinda funny.


but to the point, I don't think there is much of a NSA to give aid, even if we had to... and I agree with what's already been stated; There's no obligation to, and really no need to.

[Belschaft]

Considering the increasing prominence of Milograd in Lazarus, and the adoption of Milogradian ideology/nonsense there, I suggest we reconsider our alliance with Lazarus. My personal feeling is that it's been dead in all but name for a while now, and that keeping it on the books is redundant.

[Sandaoguo]

Milograd has done everything required of him from not only his trial here, but also from his review by the NPO. I don't think it's appropriate for us to continue punishing him or the regions in which he resides. Changing the tapestries in Lazarus isn't cause for the Cabinet or Assembly to dissolve our treaty and in effect further isolate ourselves from the GCR community.

Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 2

[Drugged Monkeys]

We need to discuss this with Lazurus' cabinet on how we want to proceed with future relations. Whether we can modify our treaty or work something else out.

[Sandaoguo]

Can we at least have a Cabinet vote before removing in-game embassies with a fellow GCR?  :unsure:

[Kris Kringle]

I actually meant to raise this matter, but it seems you were faster. Anyway...
I have to oppose this closure. We can't just break relations with any region that does something the Delegate or someone else doesn't like, and if we are breaking relations at all with another region, I think we can all agree that at least the Minister of Foreign Affairs, let alone the whole Cabinet, needs to know, and agree to it as well. The Charter empowers the MoFA to manage relations and embassies with other regions, and we might as well follow that before acting like that.
We are now in a situation where we are handling our relations with GCRs on the basis of personal opinions, and we can't do that any longer. Lazarus has every right to choose its theme, and though I don't enjoy in the least their choice, I'm not about to make foreign policy decisions or recommendations based on my personal perception. Last time I checked we had a Cabinet system, not a presidential one.

[Belschaft]

Lazarus is in breach of our treaty, and refuses to come into compliance. I am no longer willing to ignore that.

 

I acted rashly and out of anger upon seeing them using the SPSR skin on their forums, yes. That does not change the basic facts of this matter.

[Drugged Monkeys]

I am all for the Delegate making rash decisions when necessary for the good of the region, but when these decisions are made based on personal vendetta I have serious issues with it. As a long serving member of the cabinet this is not the first time I have seen you act in this manner Belschaft. I also see your decisions and answers to them as hypocritical seeing as how when others do these things you cry unconstitutional.


With that being said, I formally resign from my Minister of the Army cabinet position. Based on my activity levels I cannot fulfill my role as a Cabinet member and leader of the NSA. I was hoping to reinsert my self back into the NSA full force to try and ramp up its activity before I handed it off at next elections, but after assessing the situation of this current cabinet and how things are going I cannot remain as a part of it. This cabinet, this region, myself included, need to seriously assess the dire situation we are slowly spiraling toward.


If anyone has any questions please feel free to PM me.

[Escade]

I don't follow foreign affairs but I also agree that more communication would be especially helpful for the cabinet, a private assembly hall discussion might help us figure out what is going on, what actions seem reasonable and what repercussions they will have in current and future TSP relations. 

 

I'm happy that you resigned DM rather then be recalled. I do hope that someone will either take up the MoA position or perhaps you can open a debate on how to restructure it so that responsibilities are evenly distributed.

 

Bel, while I am a rash person and quick to anger I do think you're not utilizing your cabinet and there's some lack of communication going on.  How are you doing? What's going on? Can you maybe start a private assembly hall discussion for the cabinet where you outline what you're thinking these days as Delegate and we can contribute as well?

[Kris Kringle]

Uhm...our treaty with Lazarus? Was this a unilateral action from them?

[Kris Kringle]

I just received this proposal from Lazarus. Please do give it a serious thought. By all means let's talk with Lazarus and negotiate on the specific text, but don't just discard it. It will honestly do us no harm to have normal relations with them and besides we have to stop fighting with a new GCR every month.


 

<p style="font-family:Verdana, Tahoma;font-size:13px;"><b>Non-Aggression Pact Between The Coalition of The South Pacific and the People's Republic of Lazarus</b>


<p style="font-family:Verdana, Tahoma;font-size:13px;"> 

<p style="font-family:Verdana, Tahoma;font-size:13px;">The People's Republic of Lazarus and The Coalition of The South Pacific,


<p style="font-family:Verdana, Tahoma;font-size:13px;">Recognizing that the regions have had positive relations in the past and even had a treaty;


<p style="font-family:Verdana, Tahoma;font-size:13px;">Acknowledging that the challenges that Milograd's leadership in Lazarus presented to The South Pacific, and that miscommunications occurred within The South Pacific's cabinet in the aftermath of Milograd's appointment to the Chairmanship of the People's Republic of Lazarus, and that this lead to a tense and regretful fallout;


<p style="font-family:Verdana, Tahoma;font-size:13px;">Believing, however, that the regions themselves have no reason to be enemies, that the people of Lazarus are not enemies of the South Pacific and vice versa, and that mutual respect between game-created regions and non-conflicting entities is beneficial to all involved parties;


<p style="font-family:Verdana, Tahoma;font-size:13px;">Hereby agree to:

1. Refrain from undermining or antagonizing each other,
   
   
   
   
2. Respect the legitimacy of their counterparts and support their sovereignty,
   
   
   
   
3. Refrain from conspiring against their counterparts and from promoting hostility between the two regions,
   
   
   
   
4. Support the counterpart region if their government is overthrown, or if their is a severe threat to the legitimate delegate of the region,
   
   
   
   
5. and to honestly report any known threats or security concerns about their counterpart's to the security officials in the pertinent region.
   
   
   
   

<p style="font-family:Verdana, Tahoma;font-size:13px;">Signed,

Milograd, Chairman of the People's Republic of Lazarus

[___x_______Whoever Would Sign This In TSP____

[Escade]

I don't know, maybe I'm in an "end of the year cheer" or the books on positive thinking are working but I'm up for a lot of "leave the past behind" and start fresh movements.