Osiris Treaty

[Hileville]

Where are we standing on this?  While Osi's new regime says they are honoring all treaties I think it would set a bad precedent to not dissolve the current treaty and re-negotiate.

[LadyElysium]

Forgive my ignorance, but I went poking around and was unable to locate the treaty for perusal in quick time. Feel free to point me in the right direction to answer my own question. My question is...does the treaty language indicate that the agreement is between the governments, or merely the region? In other words, does the treaty imply an agreement with the former governmental organization in Osiris? Or merely with "the governing body" of Osiris? I think this makes a large difference in weighing the dissolution of said treaty.

[Rebel-topia]

Linky

 

It really doesnt say either way. Usually, precedent is with the government, not the region.

 

 

Im all for desolving and reworking. I think we need somenthing with a little more meet to it. And I think this will give us the perfect oppertunity to do so.

[LadyElysium]

Thank you for the link. And the clarification. You're right, it doesn't really say. That's something to consider when writing new treaties, so that you do not always have to quote precedent. And precedent can change.

 

So, I'm still really new here. Precedent has been set that the treaties lie with the government in effect at the time the treaty was enacted? Just want to make sure I'm understanding your point.

[Libetarian Republics]

Don't think it would be the "governing body" of Osirsis because that would constitute Gatesville's occupied Osiris as one too

 

For the dissolution of the current treaty and perhaps a renegotiation of a new one. Gives us the chance to reevaluate our relationship perhaps?

[Kris Kringle]

To a certain point the Treaty appears to be between regions, since its first words are Osiris and The South Pacific (without, for instance, the pretitle of 'Coalition of'). Still I agree that precedent can in the end indicate another thing, but both perspectives should be taken into account.
While I don't think we "have to" negotiate a new agreement, I do agree that out of an abundance of caution we could use a new treaty, specially given that a few months ago we had discussed the possibility of updating the terms of some of our treaties.

[Sandaoguo]

I would support renegotiating the treaty regardless, because I think gameplay treaties in general are poorly written. Regarding the government/region distinction, the treaty is clearly between one region and another, irrespective of their governments. It's similar to how treaties in the real world are attached to states and not governments, so when a new President is elected, that doesn't mean treaties are affected. However, there are obligations in that treaty that we need to consider.

 

For a legal standpoint, Asta most certainly undermined the legitimate regime by dissolving it and installing herself as leader. She had the support of regional powerbrokers, but that support seems to be waning. In my interpretation of the Cabinet statement, we didn't declare Asta's regime legitimate, but we didn't consider it traditional coup d'etat either. TSP's recognition of Asta's regime is dependent upon its support of Osiris regional leadership and upon it being a temporary and transitional regime until a new constitution is written.

 

For me, if it appears that Asta is simply going to construct new institutions around her, then this is a traditional coup and we should respond as such. But if it's an open process and things aren't done to solidify her status as "Empress," then we should respect the process. We've voiced our concerns about how it went down, and there's not much more we can do short of cut off TSP-Osiris relations (which would have been an overreaction). I think time plays an important factor here. If we don't start seeing an honest effort to write a new constitution, we need to reconsider our policy.

 

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Now, for some real talk. So far, there hasn't been any progress at all. Yesterday, Asta posted her vision for a new Osiris government, and it's basically her remaining Empress and everybody else doing whatever they want with unlimited power to make it happen. So, in effect, it's anarchy with Asta maintaining the delegate seat. This seems to be her long-term vision, which goes against the idea that Asta's regime is temporary (which we were told it was), and it sounds like there aren't plans to actually rewrite the constitution. Her closing remarks are basically, "If you don't like it, find someone else and force me to step down."

 

I don't think it's within TSP's best interests to keep quite on Osiris if this is really the case. I don't know what Asta's thinking, but it looks like she just wants to be in power and has no clear vision for the future of Osiris. Letting people do whatever they want is a form of placating them so she doesn't experience tough opposition. This kind of "governing" is very unstable. I'm not sure who TSP would even be negotiating with. Asta, the authoritarian Empress? The Foreign Affairs Department, since Asta's wants them to have "carte blanche" power over foreign relations? What about the military, which is ostensibly entirely controlled by Cormac with no oversight? How are we supposed to negotiate a treaty between three separate governors?

[Rebel-topia]

imo, it'd be in our best interest to have someone talk to Asta an inform her that The coalition will no longer stay silent about this Coup, and that we are dissolving the current treaty until a new constitution is written and voted into law. The, and only then, will TSP support any goings on in Osiris.

[StGeorgie]

"A new constitution" being a requirement would The South Pacific dictating to Osiris how to develop its legislation. There are members of Osiris who favour an unwritten, living constitution, rather than a rigid document full of useless legalism.

 

And it's not a coup.

[Kris Kringle]

What happened in Osiris is a coup insofar as it was the illegal takeover of the government by someone who didn't have the authority to do so. Whether it is a legitimate coup or not is another question, our position being that it depends on the ultimate purpose of the coup.
Osiris has the right to choose its form of government but other regions have the right to request someone with whom to do business in Osiris, and the current situation is such that there is no clear direction of where Asta wants to take Osiris other than the honestly ambiguous Ground Rules. Thus we need a clear vision and assurance from Osiris aside from the contradictory remakes of Asta and Cormac, among others.

[QuietDad]

Easiest way is diplomacy. The delegate or ambassador meets with the equivalent from Osiris, sign a quick one paragraph document with "after recent events, all treaties and pacts are still recognized by both existing governments"

[StGeorgie]

Um, there was nothing in the Book of the Dead preventing the government from dissolving itself, for one, which would mean the action is legal by the only measure that matters, Osiris law.

 

Secondly, Asta is the person to deal with, as the head of the current government.

 

QuietDad, we've repeatedly said that we'd resign treaties if our partners so wished.

[Hileville]

I honestly believe we are beyond trying to work things out here with Osiris on the current treaty.  No matter what we decide to do the treaty needs to be dissolved and then we can work out a new one with whatever government is in place.

 

There is currently a vote going on which is simply yes or no for supporting Asta's style of Government.  That vote is at 15 for and 16 against (-1 for Milo who didn't want to vote in the poll).

 

I am close to officially motioning a vote on the dissolving of the Osiris Treaty.

[Hileville]

I motion we vote on the repeal of the Osiris Treaty.

[Southern Bellz]

Repeal it, the government we signed it with doesnt exist 

[LadyElysium]

Seconded'ed.

[Rebel-topia]

3rd'd.

[Sandaoguo]

"A new constitution" being a requirement would The South Pacific dictating to Osiris how to develop its legislation. There are members of Osiris who favour an unwritten, living constitution, rather than a rigid document full of useless legalism.

 

We're not going to dictate that Osiris must mimic TSP's form of democracy. However, the Cabinet statement predicated our support on two things: the support of regional leadership and the regime being a temporary trustee overseeing a return to constitutional governance. Support of the regime from the leadership is not unanimous. I think it's quite telling that non-citizens are no longer able to view the forum in which Biyah and others were voicing dissent. Additionally, we were told from the very beginning that Asta's regime was not going to be permanent, and that's clearly not the case. There's been no indication that a constitution is going to written (indeed, you've said yourself that it's not!) and Asta's form of elections is "force me to resign."

 

We need our allies to be stable and reliable. We approached this with a willingness to give Asta the benefit of the doubt, because we were being reassured that this coup would lead to greater activity and greater stability for the region. We were not led to believe that Osiris would go from being relatively democratic to being helmed by a dictator. The series of events that have unfolded, and particularly the way they have unfolded, lead me (at least) to believe Osiris is still unstable and the current group of players simply vying for power thanks to the vacuum left by Cormac's leadership. I want good TSP-Osiris relations, but it's clear to me that we need to send a strong message to Osiris that this relationship is not unconditional.

 

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I'll bring up a resolution to vote on tomorrow afternoon, though I think Belschaft has the authority to dissolve the treaty himself.

[StGeorgie]

Glen-Rhodes, non-citizens are no longer able to see that forum because if they could, they could also vote in the Plebiscite that is going on. I don't think we want people who aren't Osirians voting on the future of Osiris. Do you?

 

And it was Biyah himself who hid the forum. So how telling is it now?

[Belschaft]

*does not have the power to unilaterally disolve treaties; what The Assembly enacts only The Assembly can undo*

[Southern Bellz]

I would just say because the government that we dissolved the treaty with does not exist in any functioning capacity, we wish to end the treaty. We will continue to monitor the situation in osiris and act accordingly.

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[Belschaft]

I would prefer to simply suspend the treaty, rather than dissolve it; if and when a functional government arises in Osiris we can then renegotiate it.

[Sandaoguo]

*does not have the power to unilaterally disolve treaties; what The Assembly enacts only The Assembly can undo*

 

It's actually not very clear. There's no language in the Charter about repealing treaties. I'm not even sure what threshold would be required for this vote! I'm planning on bringing it up as a simple resolution voicing the Assembly's belief that the treaty is no longer active, rather than a substantive repeal of it. Looking through the archives, I can only find one instance of the Assembly repealing a treaty (the Modern Pacific Alliance). There's no mention of the threshold required, and it didn't even garner true majority support (most people voted nay or abstained). I don't consider that precedent.

 

So, lacking that information, I'm basing my assumption off of real-world procedures (at least in the US). As the head of state, the Delegate and his/her Cabinet has plenary power over foreign relations (the Assembly doesn't vote on embassies, for example). Part of that power is the authority to terminate or suspend treaties. The Assembly gets involved when the Delegate wants to introduce something that will be binding upon us and the whole region, such as treaties and declarations of war. Otherwise, foreign relations is conducted at the executive level.

 

I'll bring a resolution up for vote in the next hour or two. I'll also be bringing a question to the Chief Justice about repealing treaties. If it turns out the Assembly has the power to repeal them, then the resolution will have binding force. Otherwise, it'll serve as an official opinion targeted at the Cabinet. I think that's a fair route to go.

[Sandaoguo]

Glen-Rhodes, non-citizens are no longer able to see that forum because if they could, they could also vote in the Plebiscite that is going on. I don't think we want people who aren't Osirians voting on the future of Osiris. Do you?
 
And it was Biyah himself who hid the forum. So how telling is it now?

It's fairly easy to limit access to the forum to read-only, as was the case with several other forums. Biyah is still an admin and is carrying out admin requests. I'm not sure if he endorses Asta's regime now (because the forum is hidden), but I doubt it. Furthermore, this "plebiscite" must be public, so hopefully it's not hidden for long.

[Sandaoguo]

Does anybody oppose this language? I pretty much just need a second to bring this text to vote.

 

Whereas the regions of The South Pacific and Osiris entered into a treaty on March 29, 2013, recognizing the importance of unity between Game-Created Regions,


Whereas the Osiris-TSP Treaty emphasizes the sole recognition of the legitimate governments of both regions,


Whereas on September 15, 2013, the nation Detective Figs (also known as “Astarial” and “Asta”) engaged in a coup d’etat of the legitimate government of Osiris, in the midst of a constitutional convention,


Whereas the Cabinet of the The Coalition of The South Pacific released a statement on September 18, 2013, expressing its concern over the actions of Detective Figs and other prominent members of Osiris, particularly regarding the concentration of power towards the new regime,


Whereas the aforementioned statement predicated the support of The South Pacific for the new Osiris regime on the new regime being a temporary trustee that would guide Osiris to a return of constitutional government and address the frequent instability issues of the region,


Whereas the new regime released a set of “Ground Rules” that appeared to be a long-term vision for the regime to stay in power, in contradiction to the initial understanding that Detective Figs would not remain in power permanently,


Whereas the new regime lost the support of important and prominent members of Osiris,


Whereas the above events cause great concern to the Assembly of The Coalition of The South Pacific regarding the continued stability of Osiris,


Resolved by the Assembly of The Coalition of The South Pacific, that it is our sense that


1. The new regime of Osiris led by Detective Figs is not the legitimate government of Osiris.


2. There is an obligation for The South Pacific to recognize only the legitimate governments of Game-Created Regions.


3. Due to the unfortunate events of September 15, 2013, and troubling development thereafter, the Assembly of The Coalition of The South Pacific does not consider the Osiris-TSP treaty to be in force.


4. The Osiris-TSP Treaty should be renegotiated at such a time when a legitimate government returns to Osiris.