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***Sandaoguo*** · (This post was last modified: 09-16-2013, 01:39 AM by Sandaoguo.)

So, it seems like Osiris just got couped again. Except this time, the entire Old Guard supports it. Osiris is an ally of ours, so I figure it's something we should respond to, if this doesn't turn out to be a big joke.

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I'm sure you guys can predict my thoughts on this. It's unacceptable and we should rebuke Asta, Biyah, Neenee, NK, and any others going along with it. An Osiris controlled under an unconstitutional regime is not compatible with The South Pacific's interests. Exactly how we respond is a mystery to me. There is no government-in-exile or anybody else we can readily recognize as theÂ legitimate government of Osiris.

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I'm sure a log of the entire channel will be posted somewhere soon, but here's the conversation I had with Thrawnn. This is obviously a very dynamic situation, since this all started about a half hour ago at most. I may be totally wrong about this whole thing, but it's best that we stay on top this from the start.

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Quote:Â

<Thrawnn> To be honest with you

<Thrawnn> I'm just here for laughs
<Glen-Rhodes> Well that doesn't help me determine if this is serious
<Thrawnn> Yeah, Asta is serious.
<Thrawnn> Asta gets what Asta wants.
<Glen-Rhodes> So are you guys couping yourselves or...
<Thrawnn> She said screw a constitution, so by the Universal Metric of Coups, yes.
<Thrawnn> She's doing as she pleases.
<Glen-Rhodes> You're being so mysterious.
<Glen-Rhodes> The question I'm getting at is who's supporting her
<Thrawnn> Aaah, now that's funny.
<Thrawnn> Honestly, GR, if you, a veritable genius can't figure out, what chance does a retired banker have?
<Glen-Rhodes> I'm a genius, but you're in the room
* Thrawnn chuckles
<Thrawnn> As far as I can tell, the Old Guard.
<Thrawnn> Biyah, Neenee, NK, and so on

Escade · 09-16-2013, 02:12 AM

Not sure what to say about this exceptÂ :unsure:

Osiris, what are ya'll drinking over there?

***Sandaoguo*** · 09-16-2013, 02:25 AM

Quote:Not sure what to say about this exceptÂ :unsure:

Osiris, what are ya'll drinking over there?

Â

Osiris has had a systemic leadership problem for a while. There's one or two people there who might be successful at running the region, but otherwise it's entire governing population is generally dysfunctional and has been ever since Earth left.

Â

This coup is looking like it's real. However, it's still very dynamic, so I'm personally going to wait until tomorrow when there's a nice and succinct summary in one NS's newspapers. It looks like Asta suspended the Constitution and has the rest of the Cabinet supporting her (or at least going along with it for now). This isn't a typical coup, but it is a usurping of power that I believe is totally contrary to our culture and regional interests.

Â

If this is still going on by this time tomorrow, I think we need to reassess our relations with Osiris. In a situation like this, there is no legitimate government we can recognize instead of Asta's unconstitutional regime. So unless somebody plans on going full intervention regime change on Osiris, I don't see how there can be a military response. All that's left is to pursue avenues of diplomacy. However, if Asta does not return the region to constitutional governance, TSP should not maintain its alliance.

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Obviously that's a hypothetical and it's too soon to be formulating a response. I've created this thread preemptively and to ensure that it's something we actually talk about, rather than not pressing this because Osiris is an ally.

***Kris Kringle*** · 09-16-2013, 11:38 AM

From the Osiris RMB:

The Former Pharaoh of Cormac A Stark (2 hours ago)

The TL;DR version is that Detective Figs, with the support of the government and my own support as well as the support of most of the citizens active on the forum, has been vested with all executive, legislative, and judicial power and all existing government bodies have been dissolved. This has been done to move the region toward a more secure, stable, and active future to avoid the coups and other crises we have seen over the past few months.

There will be more details later but this isn't a coup, no nations have been ejected and/or banned from the region, and WA nations should continue endorsing The Holy Flemingovian Empress of Detective Figs.

***Sandaoguo*** · (This post was last modified: 09-16-2013, 01:22 PM by Sandaoguo.)

They are painting it as a popular "transition," but the fact remains that a group of elites decided to dissolve the Constitution and place themselves as dictatorial rulers. Biyah was on #the_south_pacific last night adamant that they "polled our people and citizens" before taking any action. However, I received mixed stories all night long. Raven talked about how it's a dramatic action that needs to be taken, because the constitutional convention wasn't moving forward. I'm not sure how that meshes with the idea that they have "98% backing." If it's a consensus-based coup, then I'm not sure why there hasn't been a vote, rather than just a reassurance by a former coup-er that the entire region is behind it. Also, they brought in TBH to back Asta, and Mall has been endorsing every single WA nation in Osiris since last night, so this has every element of a coup except mass ejections.

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Osiris is a highly destabilized region, and this was an unacceptable anti-democratic move. I have my doubts about how much support there actually is among the citizenry. I'll need to see an actual vote before I believe that. We have an obligation to recognize only the legitimate government of Osiris. I don't see how the current unconstitutional regime can be considered legitimate. In the interests of GCR stability, we should not encourage these kinds of activities. Yes, Osiris has a systemic government dysfunction problem; the answer to that isn't more dysfunction. I think we need to firmly say that Osiris must immediately continue the constitutional convention, and elections must be held. A coup is a coup is a coup, and recognizing Asta's unconstitutional regime is a long-term security risk to all GCRs.

Â

For full disclosure, the discussion in #the_south_pacific last night,. I realize I said some things that might suggest the Cabinet has reached some kind of conclusion, but I believe I stayed adequately vague

Code:
Sep 15 21:04:40 <Glen-Rhodes>    so uh

Sep 15 21:04:49 <Glen-Rhodes>    what's going on in osiris LordRavenclaw Detective_Figs 

Sep 15 21:04:51 <Dae>    herro

Sep 15 21:08:02 <Hileville>    I can't even keep up with Osi anymore

Sep 15 21:08:30 <Glen-Rhodes>    I'm 75/25 on it being a joke.

Sep 15 21:08:33 <Dae>    So I can't get on NS here Hileville

Sep 15 21:08:46 <Dae>    could you not kick me off of the forums yet?

Sep 15 21:08:54 <LordRavenclaw>    I don't know.

Sep 15 21:09:01 <LordRavenclaw>    I am honestly, not sure GR.

Sep 15 21:09:18 <LordRavenclaw>    I'm trying to keep up... things are happening faster than I can digest them.

Sep 15 21:10:07 <Sanctaria>    Oh Osiris.

Sep 15 21:10:11 <Hileville>    [21:08] <+Dae> could you not kick me off of the forums yet?  << ???

Sep 15 21:10:19 <Glen-Rhodes>    Given the logs posted in #UDL, I take it the Inner Sanctum screenshots weren't the result of password cracking?

Sep 15 21:10:25 <Sanctaria>    I love Osiris, really I do, but come on.

Sep 15 21:10:31 <Dae>    let me find the email.

Sep 15 21:10:37 <LordRavenclaw>    You'd be correct to say someone in the cabinet leaked.

Sep 15 21:10:45 <LordRavenclaw>    And now someone whose still on in the cabinet leaked again.

Sep 15 21:11:54 <Dae>    pmed Hileville

Sep 15 21:13:12 <Detective_Figs>    [21:08] <@Glen-Rhodes> I'm 75/25 on it being a joke. <--- Yeah, I think most people will think that at this point

Sep 15 21:13:18 <Detective_Figs>    After I spent 2 weeks softening 'em up :)

Sep 15 21:13:49 <Glen-Rhodes>    If I join the Osiris channel, are you going to kick me?

Sep 15 21:14:10 <Detective_Figs>    probably not, that wouldn't be very nice

Sep 15 21:14:45 <Glen-Rhodes>    :)

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Sep 15 21:28:16 *    NyanServ gives voice to Mall

Sep 15 21:28:29 <Glen-Rhodes>    Hi Mall welcome to our home.

Sep 15 21:29:21 <Mall>    ... >.>

Sep 15 21:29:25 <Mall>    Why is everyone weird today?

Sep 15 21:30:12 *    Dae streaks across the lawn

Sep 15 21:30:15 <Dae>    OH HAI DURR!

Sep 15 21:30:53 <Mall>    ... I'm going to coup this region again. It clearly needs another purge.

Sep 15 21:31:47 <Dae>    Don't worry, we're still preparing to-

Sep 15 21:31:57 *    Dae is killed by a poisoned dart

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Sep 15 21:58:59 <Mall>    Hey GR could you do me a quick favor?

Sep 15 21:59:37 *    Todd_McCloud is now known as Bane

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Sep 15 22:00:32 <Glen-Rhodes>    ??? Mall 

Sep 15 22:00:55 <Mall>    Grab me a list of every WA nation in osi. I can't remember which site to use.

Sep 15 22:01:04 <frattastan>    >_>

Sep 15 22:01:05 *    Todd_McCloud is now known as Judge_Fudge

Sep 15 22:03:23 <Glen-Rhodes>    Um. The API?

Sep 15 22:03:35 <frattastan>    maybe he wants links.

Sep 15 22:03:35 *    Judge_Fudge is now known as Bane

Sep 15 22:03:35 <LordRavenclaw>    TNP has one.

Sep 15 22:04:17 <Sanctaria>    We do?

Sep 15 22:04:25 <Mall>    Right, this computer can't load the api right now. It's on its last legs.

Sep 15 22:04:27 <Mall>    I need a list.

Sep 15 22:04:33 <Glen-Rhodes>    I've never made a tool that does that.

Sep 15 22:04:33 <Detective_Figs>    xD

Sep 15 22:04:37 <frattastan>    Mallfail.

Sep 15 22:04:54 <Mall>    Yes but you could. I know you can, because it isn't difficult.

Sep 15 22:05:10 <Sanctaria>    Mall, I think you've got some brown there

Sep 15 22:05:11 <Glen-Rhodes>    Are you asking me to whip up a script at 10pm on a Sunday

Sep 15 22:05:12 <Sanctaria>    on your nose

Sep 15 22:05:31 <Glen-Rhodes>    I can give you a list of all the nations in Osiris :)

Sep 15 22:05:41 *    Disconnected (Connection reset by peer).

**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Sep 15 22:05:41 2013

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Sep 15 22:06:01 2013

Sep 15 22:06:01 *    Now talking on #the_south_pacific

Sep 15 22:06:01 *    Topic for #the_south_pacific is: Welcome to the South Pacific's IRC. | Forum: http://forums.thesouthpacific.org/ | Recruit here and get banned. | The Lampshade Bar is open! | feepbot is forever gone.

Sep 15 22:06:01 *    Topic for #the_south_pacific set by Hileville!hileville@dynamic-acs-72-23-103-254.zoominternet.net at Mon May 27 04:17:12 2013

Sep 15 22:06:06 <frattastan>    You'll eventually end up in TRR anyway.

Sep 15 22:06:13 <GR>    ugh

Sep 15 22:06:14 <frattastan>    stop wasting your time with those other sinkers

Sep 15 22:06:18 <Mall>    lolfratt

Sep 15 22:06:22 -NickServ-    Invalid password for Glen-Rhodes.

Sep 15 22:06:26 *    Glen-Rhodes has quit (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by GR)))

Sep 15 22:06:26 -NickServ-    Glen-Rhodes has been ghosted.

Sep 15 22:06:32 *    You are now known as Glen-Rhodes

Sep 15 22:06:32 -NickServ-    This nickname is registered. Please choose a different nickname, or identify via /msg NickServ identify <password>.

Sep 15 22:06:37 >nickserv<    identify ****

Sep 15 22:06:38 -NickServ-    You are now identified for Glen-Rhodes.

Sep 15 22:06:39 -NickServ-    1 failed login since last login.

Sep 15 22:06:39 -NickServ-    Last failed attempt from: GR!~Hierocles@cpe-174-102-104-135.woh.res.rr.com on Sep 15 19:04:30 2013.

Sep 15 22:06:39 *    NyanServ gives channel operator status to Glen-Rhodes

Sep 15 22:07:21 <Mall>    nevermind gr

Sep 15 22:07:26 <Mall>    someone decided to be useful and get me one

Sep 15 22:07:40 <Glen-Rhodes>    wow mall okay

Sep 15 22:07:49 <Glen-Rhodes>    sorry i'm not a magician

Sep 15 22:07:52 <Glen-Rhodes>    or god

Sep 15 22:07:58 <Glen-Rhodes>    :(

Sep 15 22:07:59 <Sanctaria>    WAIT

Sep 15 22:08:02 <Sanctaria>    HOLD THE PRESS

Sep 15 22:08:09 <Glen-Rhodes>    shut up sanc

Sep 15 22:08:09 *    Sanctaria screenshots

Sep 15 22:08:11 <Glen-Rhodes>    don't even

Sep 15 22:08:11 <Sanctaria>    Ok, carry on.

Sep 15 22:08:16 <Mall>    LOL

Sep 15 22:08:17 <Hileville>    lol

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Sep 15 23:34:28 <Mall>    Unibot what a hell is a happenin in osi

Sep 15 23:34:39 *    Sanctaria is now known as Sanc|Zzz

Sep 15 23:35:45 <Raven|bed>    Mahaj intends to recognise the change in Osiris, based on what I've seen.

Sep 15 23:36:03 <Mall>    I don't think he has a choice.

Sep 15 23:36:22 <Raven|bed>    Well it wasn't a coup, although Prussia - a UDL member has been raging.

Sep 15 23:36:37 <Raven|bed>    Almost as bad as when he attacked Hileville on the forums here.

Sep 15 23:37:04 <Hileville>    prussia. lol

Sep 15 23:37:34 <Raven|bed>    I said he was barking then. He was frothing at the mouth in Osi.

Sep 15 23:38:00 <Raven|bed>    Complaining that the natives had been stamped on.

Sep 15 23:47:18 <Glen-Rhodes>    I haven't heard anything about the UDL recognizing the unconstitutional regime.

Sep 15 23:48:03 <Raven|bed>    Most likely, I think Mahaj isn't going to fight it - his role in the region hasn't changed as the Council of Ma'at, hasn't been dissolbed.

Sep 15 23:48:06 <Raven|bed>    dissolved*

Sep 15 23:48:14 <Raven|bed>    That and there was no coup.

Sep 15 23:48:31 <Glen-Rhodes>    It is a coup, there just isn't a vocal opposition.

Sep 15 23:48:40 *    Raven|bed shrugs

Sep 15 23:48:44 <Mall>    oh boy here we go

Sep 15 23:48:48 <Raven|bed>    Then send an official poll out.

Sep 15 23:48:52 <Raven|bed>    Leaflet the place.

Sep 15 23:49:05 <Glen-Rhodes>    If you dissolve a constitution and declare all authority rests in you, it's a coup.

Sep 15 23:49:07 <Raven|bed>    Let time be the judge of that.

Sep 15 23:49:33 <Raven|bed>    I am not arguing or wasting what's left of my energy on legal definitions.

Sep 15 23:49:51 <Glen-Rhodes>    If there's so much popular support, the Constitution could have been amended or a vote could have been held.

Sep 15 23:50:07 <Raven|bed>    We've been trying to hold a constitutional convention for about a month now.

Sep 15 23:50:13 <Glen-Rhodes>    That's what Osiris should do, so it's not as controversial.

Sep 15 23:50:49 <Raven|bed>    Osiris has tried.

Sep 15 23:51:38 <Raven|bed>    But when people give sweet fa about it, then perhaps a more drastic change is needed.

Sep 15 23:52:02 <Raven|bed>    The interesting part of this experiment is, strange as it may be for me, is that this allows rapid change.

Sep 15 23:52:16 <Raven|bed>    If this particular one is good, it'll stick. If not, we'll find something else.

Sep 15 23:52:37 <Hileville>    I like watching the new reports page.

Sep 15 23:52:38 *    Biyah (~PANSBX604@173-23-7-83.client.mchsi.com) has joined #the_south_pacific

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Sep 15 23:52:56 <Glen-Rhodes>    If that's the case, then you can't really claim to have unanimous support. I don't believe it's credible for you say that, but also say that this is a dramatic change in response to Osiris being unable to make changes through a constitutional convention.

Sep 15 23:53:22 <Biyah>    We polled our people and citizens. That poll didn't include non-citizens, whose opinion we don't care about.

Sep 15 23:53:23 <Glen-Rhodes>    Just hold a vote, so that it's clear whether or not the region supports the move.

Sep 15 23:53:25 <Biyah>    which would be yo.

Sep 15 23:53:30 <Biyah>    just sayin'

Sep 15 23:53:43 <Glen-Rhodes>    Biyah, you didn't see what I was responding to.

Sep 15 23:53:45 <Raven|bed>    GR, most likely, I won't be around in a few weeks. So whatever happens, happens. No one will die.

Sep 15 23:53:50 <Biyah>    care to bet on that?

Sep 15 23:53:51 <Raven|bed>    No one will die, or be otherwise hurt.

Sep 15 23:54:08 <Glen-Rhodes>    Biyah, I'm not interested in a snarky argument with you.

Sep 15 23:54:13 <Raven|bed>    Consider it an experiment into a different style of government. A simulation if you will.

Sep 15 23:54:25 <Mall>    >entering #osiris to argue about coup

Sep 15 23:54:31 <Mall>    >not wanting to snark with biyah

Sep 15 23:54:35 <Mall>    >wat r u doin

Sep 15 23:54:35 <Biyah>    That's good, because your opinion on our legal and political process wasn't asked for. We will do what we want, you can pundit that we're evil or stupid all you like.

Sep 15 23:54:42 <Glen-Rhodes>    This isn't #osiris.

Sep 15 23:54:51 <Biyah>    and yet, you're arguing about OUR process here.

Sep 15 23:54:57 <Raven|bed>    Change can be good.

Sep 15 23:55:08 <Biyah>    from a vantage point that has almost no facts, just what you assume.

Sep 15 23:55:14 <Raven|bed>    Not all the time, but whether this change works - remains to be seen.

Sep 15 23:55:18 <Biyah>    The term for that is 'ignorance'

Sep 15 23:55:23 <Glen-Rhodes>    Biyah, actions have consequences, and outsiders are able to have opinions on what goes on in Osiris. You don't exist in a vacuum.

Sep 15 23:55:33 <Mall>    OH LORD I CAN'T KEEP TRACK OF ANYTHING

Sep 15 23:55:36 <Mall>    WHAT AM I DOING

Sep 15 23:55:36 <Raven|bed>    However, discounting it because of a possible opposition, right now, would be needlessly silly.

Sep 15 23:55:44 <Glen-Rhodes>    If this is an experiment, then whatever. It's executed terribly and in the style of a coup.

Sep 15 23:55:44 <Biyah>    Indeed. As long as you don't try to enforce what you think we should be doig on us, you can say what you want.

Sep 15 23:55:49 <frattastan>    Tastes like interventionism, G-R. :P

Sep 15 23:56:00 <Biyah>    we're still not going to be asking your opinion. The government, the greatest bulk of it, has fully endorsed this.

Sep 15 23:56:09 <Biyah>    Which means your approva, disapproval or opinion is worth dog-turds to us.

Sep 15 23:56:17 <Biyah>    ... to be blunt.

Sep 15 23:56:21 <Glen-Rhodes>    However, stuff like this has consequences and impacts other regions and organizations. A group of elites in a GCR government dissolving the constitution is a major gameplay event.

Sep 15 23:56:38 <Glen-Rhodes>    Biyah, please leave.

Sep 15 23:56:43 <Biyah>    just so long as you know you're an outsider looking in.

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Sep 15 23:56:49 <Biyah>    if you force me out of here, yo'll  be out of #osiris.

Sep 15 23:56:52 <Biyah>    just a tip.

Sep 15 23:56:55 <frattastan>    ...why Biyah should leave?

Sep 15 23:56:59 <Raven|bed>    I'm hardly an elite.

Sep 15 23:57:07 <Mall>    Biyah hasn't done anything wrong here...

Sep 15 23:57:12 <Glen-Rhodes>    Raven|bed, you are pretty much an elite in Osiris.

Sep 15 23:57:30 <Biyah>    And you tried to be, but were too hard core to be taken seriously. so Im not sure I'd call your opinion on Raven unbiased.

Sep 15 23:57:41 <frattastan>    Any forum government in a GCR is an elite of some sort.

Sep 15 23:57:45 <Raven|bed>    No, I'm not. I'm just the only person in that region with the time and effort for their FA department (now dissolved)

Sep 15 23:58:15 <Glen-Rhodes>    Mall, frattastan, I'm not interested in having Biyah come into this channel and disrupt a discussion by throwing around insults and being generally hostile.

Sep 15 23:58:33 <Biyah>    This isnt hostile, and I got the logs of what you were saying prior to my arrival.

Sep 15 23:58:54 <Raven|bed>    Gentlemen, this debate has no real merit.

Sep 15 23:58:57 <Biyah>    IF you want a mostly one-sided conversation about Osiris, you're free to have it.

Sep 15 23:59:01 <Raven|bed>    We can agree to disagree.

Sep 15 23:59:04 <Glen-Rhodes>    You and I have very different ideas of what hostility is.

Sep 15 23:59:05 <Biyah>    Indeed, raven, it doesnt.

Sep 15 23:59:09 <Biyah>    Yes, we do.

Sep 15 23:59:18 <Biyah>    Because if Im hostile, nobody would be asking why I was being asked to leave.

Sep 15 23:59:23 <Biyah>    it would be very obvious.

Sep 15 23:59:29 <Raven|bed>    To the original point - whether Mahaj, does or does not recognise the new government in Osiris, unless he resigns, he's part of it.

Sep 15 23:59:49 <Raven|bed>    So I would like to see him justify UDL action when he still holds a role in the government he'd see to remove.

Sep 16 00:00:08 <Biyah>    I would like to see justification for UDL trying to overcome the majority of Osirian native citizens, period

Sep 16 00:00:10 <Glen-Rhodes>    There isn't any official UDL stance on Osiris right now.

Sep 16 00:00:22 <Raven|bed>    So when the UDL can decipher that - as Mahaj will not resign a role which gives him backroom access, ever, then I look forward to seeing an official stance.

Sep 16 00:00:42 <Biyah>    I won't bet on UDL response until it happens.

Sep 16 00:00:50 <Biyah>    Im quite hoping we'll be left alone.

Sep 16 00:00:52 <Glen-Rhodes>    I've been in the channel all night, and I'm getting the impression that the UDL will ultimately stay out of this.

Sep 16 00:00:59 <Biyah>    it'd be hard to justify an invasion with the government backing it

Sep 16 00:01:05 <Raven|bed>    I think so as well G-R.

Sep 16 00:01:08 <Biyah>    our government, that is

Sep 16 00:01:56 *    Codger (~Codger@pa49-181-209-193.pa.nsw.optusnet.com.au) has joined #the_south_pacific

Sep 16 00:01:57 *    NyanServ gives voice to Codger

Sep 16 00:02:51 <Glen-Rhodes>    However, the way this is going down will lead to discussions elsewhere. Like I said, this is a major gameplay event. Biyah may believe that only Osirans are allowed to have an opinion and react, but Osiris has allies and we have treaty commitments and inter-regional relations. Major events in gameplay necessitate a discussion of those in context.

Sep 16 00:03:10 <Biyah>    I don't care if yo udiscuss it, Ive said so twice in fact.

Sep 16 00:03:27 <Biyah>    just so long as you realize that you are, again, an outsider looking in - and no outsiders are welcome to step foot in the region and try to take action.

Sep 16 00:03:35 <Glen-Rhodes>    And broadly speaking, this event is novel in that it challenges what people consider legitimacy in GCRs.

Sep 16 00:03:49 <Raven|bed>    If each region decides to re-evaluate the treaties, then that is their right. However, Osiris resides in the exact same forum, under the same root, with the roughly same government, minus a few odds and ends.

Sep 16 00:03:50 <Biyah>    we're at about 98% backing. Which means our region will collectively get pissed off if a 'liberation' is planned.

Sep 16 00:03:58 <Glen-Rhodes>    Not all the facts are out there, so we'll be waiting a few days until the dust settles.

Sep 16 00:04:09 <Biyah>    that's the first wise thing you've said tonight.

Sep 16 00:04:27 <Glen-Rhodes>    Biyah, that's the hostility I'm talking about.

Sep 16 00:04:35 <Biyah>    ... good lord, you have a low threshhold

Sep 16 00:04:40 <Biyah>    that's fact, not hostility

Sep 16 00:04:58 <Biyah>    I am alowed to have an opinion. you're quite free flinging that variety of thing around in gameplay

Sep 16 00:05:14 <Biyah>    to try telling me that I am hostile for doing the same thing is hypocrisy

Sep 16 00:05:54 <Biyah>    I have not threatened you, insulted you, or done anything else of the sort.

Sep 16 00:06:01 <Glen-Rhodes>    This isn't the Gameplay forum. Raven and I were having a calm discussion.

Sep 16 00:06:04 <Biyah>    at most, all you can really claim is I don't like you - and that's well known.

Sep 16 00:06:08 <Biyah>    this... isn't calm?

Sep 16 00:06:12 <Glen-Rhodes>    No, it isn't.

Sep 16 00:06:16 *    Biyah just blinks

Sep 16 00:06:29 <Biyah>    so, who here has seen me angry?

Sep 16 00:06:36 <Raven|bed>    dont remind me.

Sep 16 00:06:37 <Glen-Rhodes>    If you were to have this conversation with someone in person, you would not be look upon very highly.

Sep 16 00:06:48 <Biyah>    on the contrary, this would be called a spirited debate in person.

Sep 16 00:07:00 <Biyah>    or, alternative (and please, this is not an insult) you would be called a thin-skinned prude

Sep 16 00:07:04 <Biyah>    *alternatively

Sep 16 00:07:28 <Biyah>    Ive seen you argue, so Im trying to wrap my head around the idea of your current stance. heh

Sep 16 00:07:41 <Glen-Rhodes>    This conversation is clearly over. You can go back to your channel, now. I'm going to go watch the latest episode of Dexter.

Sep 16 00:07:43 <Biyah>    so far, all Im getting is that you don't like me much and want to shut me down.

Sep 16 00:07:57 *    Codger (~Codger@pa49-181-209-193.pa.nsw.optusnet.com.au) has left #the_south_pacific (Leaving)

Sep 16 00:08:00 <Biyah>    that sounded remarkably like an order.

***Kris Kringle*** · (This post was last modified: 09-16-2013, 02:07 PM by Kris Kringle.)

TBH I don't know what to think of Osiris at this point. Ever since I started at NS that only thing I hear is them having coup after coup. I'm starting to think its their hobby. So far I'm inclined at holding an opinion and seeing how all this unfolds, but I do believe that the first aim must be to determine whether this has the support of Osirians or not, and then to know what their specific motivations are (and why they are saying this isn't a coup when their WFE at first said it was a coup).

Belschaft · 09-16-2013, 04:58 PM

I haven't had a chance to get on IRC and talk to anyone from Osi yet, but will do so tonight. When I have more information I'll be able to comment more fully but my first impressions;

The governing factions and citizenry has not changed; the Constitution has merely been devolved
This is entirely illegal by Osiris' own laws, but probably doesn't quite meet the definition of a coup
Even if it did meet such a definition, this course of action appears to have the support of a sizable majority of Osiris
The people responsible are the same ones who have, for the last two years, spent the most time and effort building and protecting Osiris
Even where this not the case, there is no alternative government or force native to Osiris to oppose them or for us to support; any opposition would be external, going against the fundamental principle of GCR sovereignty
Even where there an opposing faction, we lack the manpower to provide meaningful support

My initial thought is that we can do nothing but wait and see what develops, at least till we have more information on the situation in Osiris and their intent. Until we do the best course of action for us is to express mild concern but generally hopeful expectations; the illegality is troubling, but the intent appears positive.

***Sandaoguo*** · (This post was last modified: 09-16-2013, 05:16 PM by Sandaoguo.)

Belschaft, I have serious problems with what you said in the Gameplay forum, and I've responded there in kind. (e: Saw the Gameplay thread before seeing this one, by the way.) I'm worried that what you said is not so much "mild concern" as it is complete approval.

Â

As for the comment here, I think you're being far too simplistic. Dissolving the constitution means that Osiris has no rule of law. That is a unstable system, after over a year of systemic instability in Osiris. The answer to dysfunction isÂ not more dysfunction. As a democratic region, we should be working to ensure the rule of law in all of our allied regions, but instead as Delegate, you're dismissing any concerns because there's "popular support." It's become a pattern that whenever TSP's allies are implicated in a major gameplay event, you are reluctant to question their actions. Being a good ally doesn't mean supporting whatever your ally does. To be a good ally, TSP should be working in the long-term interests of both Osiris and GCRs as a whole.

Â

Legitimacy derives itself from constitutional governance, no exceptions. This looked like a coup as it was happening last nightÂ because it is a coup. If the Cabinet were to dissolve the Charter and the Code of Laws, that would be a coup. Osiris has been holding a constitutional convention, so to upend that so wantonly after the Pharaoh stepped down is an irresponsible act that we should not condone. Criticizing how this has been done will not destroy TSP-Osiris relations, but it will signal that we believe democracy and the rule of law are important in GCRs. We've frankly been irresponsible as an ally by not counseling Osiris more often during the past few months of crazy instability in the region.Â

Belschaft · 09-16-2013, 05:20 PM

Glen, I largely agree with you, but diplomacy is the art of the possible. Our ability to influence events in Osiris is limited by our own capabilities, and at present the most meaningful course of action available to us is for me to have a quiet chat with Asta behind closed doors and find out what exactly their intent is and then try and steer them in a direction that is broadly speaking democratic and constitutional. We do not make that easier or more likely to succeed by having me hammer them publicly before we know the facts of the matter.

Â

What I said in GP was mild and not overly supportive. I made it clear that I felt Osiris' future was a matter for Osirians to decide, that we would be watching what happened and that we hoped for positive results. Is any of that untrue? In the meanwhile, your known hostility to what happened allows me to play the Cabinet disunity card to avoid committing ourselves to any course of action till the situation becomes more clear. Time is what we need, not rash action.Â

***Kris Kringle*** · (This post was last modified: 09-16-2013, 07:31 PM by Kris Kringle.)

Now that I've returned home from my classes...

Â

I do think that we need to wait for all the facts before issuing an official statement or opinion on this matter, as there isÂ nothing meaningful and responsible we can do right now. So far and with whatever limited knowledge I might have I agree that it is unacceptable for us to condone this kind of actions from Osiris, as a government needs both popular approval and respect for the rule of law to be legitimate, and the lack of ejections does not mean that a government it democratic. Dissolving all legitimate institutions and giving all their powers toÂ Empress Figs is just not right, and just shows the lengths to which Osiris is unstable as a government and as a region.

Â

The fact that this doesn't seem to have caused massive protests among the population doesn't mean it's legitimate, but rather it means that those in command have the power to enact their plans without opposition. If this had happened as a result of Osirians themselves requesting it and voting in favour of it, now that would be different, but enacting such a drastic measure does no good to legitimate democratic governance among GCRs. Otherwise this is just telling others that whenever the government thinks there is a need then there is a right.

Â

Given that, as Glen and Belschaft have said, there is no legitimate or opposition government to support and furthermore that our operation options are so far limited, I think that our future course of action will be diplomatic, which means that we must be firm when needed (that would be to support a return to democratic order in Osiris) but neutral until we get all the facts. That doesn't mean I support not condemning what has happened in Osiris, but I do believe that we need to be sure of what has happened in the first place.

Rebel-topia · (This post was last modified: 09-17-2013, 12:50 AM by Rebel-topia.)

Walks like a duck quacks like a duck... Sure as hell ain't a cow. Though, I hope I'm wrong that this all but smells of a coup. And there really isn't anything we can do but to try to guide them towards a constitutional government.

***Sandaoguo*** · (This post was last modified: 09-18-2013, 01:33 AM by Sandaoguo.)

Quote:Glen, I largely agree with you, but diplomacy is the art of the possible. Our ability to influence events in Osiris is limited by our own capabilities, and at present the most meaningful course of action available to us is for me to have a quiet chat with Asta behind closed doors and find out what exactly their intent is and then try and steer them in a direction that is broadly speaking democratic and constitutional. We do not make that easier or more likely to succeed by having me hammer them publicly before we know the facts of the matter.

I agree that we need to be diplomatic. I'm not suggesting we dissolve relations or anything like that. My long-term goal in gameplay is for TSP to have good relations with all other GCRs, regardless of how I feel about the specific people within them. I haven't proposed any specific policy. I've just opened up a discussion and have expressed my opinion.

Â

Quote:What I said in GP was mild and not overly supportive. I made it clear that I felt Osiris' future was a matter for Osirians to decide, that we would be watching what happened and that we hoped for positive results. Is any of that untrue? In the meanwhile, your known hostility to what happened allows me to play the Cabinet disunity card to avoid committing ourselves to any course of action till the situation becomes more clear. Time is what we need, not rash action.

It was fairly supportive, Bel. You said the only thing that matters is that there's popular support, and that the vocal dissidents are "armchair commentators" whose opinions don't matter. That is a message of support. It's actually theÂ exact same thing that BIyah was telling me the night of the coup.

Â

I don't think there's Cabinet disunity here. We have made contradictory statements on the Gameplay forums, but we haven't actually discussed a Cabinet response. I consider my personal opinion to be separate from the interests of TSP. I believe there has been plenty of time and we know enough of the facts to make a statement, because it's not like our statement is going to be far-reaching. We aren't going to conduct military actions. The most contentious point I think we'll be discussing is if we recognize the unconstitutional government. On that ground, I think we don't have much a choice. The best course of action is recognizing the regime asÂ transitional.

Â

I've prepared a draft statement that I think is very diplomatic, doesn't start any fires, and doesn't commit TSP to any particular policy if this whole thing goes sour.

Â

The Cabinet of the Coalition of The South Pacific, recalling the events of the past few days in Osiris, wishes to express the following concerns and hopes:

Â

First, the Cabinet believes in the self-determination of all Game-Created Regions and does not wish to dictate which form of government Osiris must take. This is a process that all regions must undertake in the absence of foreign interference.

Â

Second, we respect the determination of Osiris regional leadership that the governing system has systemic flaws that must be addressed. Osiris has experienced several instances of instability that have challenged and at times strained inter-regional and organizational relationships. These problems must be addressed so that peace and stability can return to the community.

Â

Third, we are concerned with the dissolution of the Osiris constitution and the concentration of power, even if this new regime is temporal and transitional. We are troubled that there was no formal vote held or public discussion had, which caused significant disruption in the community as the dramatic governmental changes were occurring. We believe that democratic governance in all Game-Created Regions is the most preferable pan-regional order, within the context of regional self-determination. We hope for a speedy drafting and establishment of a new Constitution in Osiris, as well as new elections to ensure that the voices of the citizenry are constantly taken into account.

Â

Fourth, we currently oppose any military action that threatens the independence or sovereignty of Osiris, and we would view the development of interventionism as a threat to our strategic long-term interests. Diplomatic engagement should be the primary and sole vehicle for addressing purely internal governing transitions within Game-Created Regions. Military action should only be considered as a response to foreign attack and rogue delegates.

Â

I've italicized "and rogue delegates" because I know this a charged phrase related to the UDL. It's not meant to reference the UDL's rogue delegate policy directly.

Rebel-topia · 09-18-2013, 02:52 AM

Im not against what youve stated in your draft, except the 4th part. I dont think that its completely necessary to state we wont support military action outside of "foreign attack and rogue delegates"... Cause, if this turns into (if it really isnt at this point) a coup, then we dont want to have to eat those words.

***Sandaoguo*** · 09-18-2013, 02:55 AM

Quote:Im not against what youve stated in your draft, except the 4th part. I dont think that its completely necessary to state we wont support military action outside of "foreign attack and rogue delegates"... Cause, if this turns into (if it really isnt at this point) a coup, then we dont want to have to eat those words.

Â

The fourth part stems from some discussions that were going on the night of. Some people were suggesting that there could be military action even if there was popular support for Asta. It's based on the notion of humanitarian intervention in the real world --- going in and changing the regime because you feel it isn't acting the best interests of the people. The way it's conceptualized, an intervention is different from fighting against a rogue delegate or traditional coup.

Rebel-topia · 09-18-2013, 03:02 AM

Then maybe it should be worded as such, very indirectly, that we reserve the right to support the original government, in any of its forms. If this turns sour, we need to be able to use (what little army we do have) what we have to uphold our treaty with them. Im not sure that we want to say we wont intervene if the GCR community is threatened by their actions...

Escade · 09-18-2013, 03:13 AM

Is Bel dating Asta? :p

***Sandaoguo*** · 09-18-2013, 03:13 AM

Hm. Okay, how about this?

Â

Fourth, we currently oppose any military action that threatens the independence or sovereignty of Osiris. The development of interventionism discussed among some in the military community is a complex issue that may affect our long-term security interests, and we would not welcome any rash action not conducted with the advice and consent of the Game-Created Regions. As a general rule, diplomatic engagement should be the primary and sole vehicle for addressing purely internal governing transitions within Game-Created Regions. Military action is a serious commitment that bears significant consequences for all Game-Created Regions. It should be used only as a last resort and not as a means to achieve politically expedient goals.

Belschaft · 09-18-2013, 09:28 AM

Only flirting outrageously Tongue

Â

Some minor changes, largely of tone and emphasis. I'll see if I can't dig up the normal format for cabinet statements.

Â

First, the Cabinet believes in the sovereign right to self-determination of all Game-Created Regions as a fundamental principle and has no interest in dictating which form of government Osiris should take. This is a process that all regions must undertake in the absence of foreign interference.

Â

Second, we respect the determination of Osiris regional leadership that the extant system of governance possessed systemic flaws in need of address. Osiris has experienced a prolonged period of regional instability that has challenged and at times strained inter-regional and organizational relationships. These problems must be addressed so that peace and stability can return to the community.

Â

Third, we are concerned with the dissolution of the Osiris constitution and the concentration of power, even if this new regime is temporal and transitional and regardless of the professed benign intentions. We are troubled that there was no formal vote or plebiscite held nor public discussion before the fact, which caused significant disruption in the community as the dramatic governmental changes were occurring. We believe that liberal democratic governance and institutions in the Game-Created Regions remain the most sustainable and desirable form of regional organisation, within the context of both regional self-determination and an international diplomatic system. We hope for a speedy drafting and establishment of a new body of regional law in Osiris, as well as new elections to ensure that the voices of the native community are constantly taken into account.

Â

Fourth, we currently oppose any military action that threatens the independence or sovereignty of our ally Osiris. The prospect of outside intervention as discussed among some in the military community is a complex issue that would affect our long-term security interests and infringe upon the rights of the native Osiran community; we would not welcome and would be honor bound to oppose any rash action conducted without the advice and consent of the Game-Created Regions in general and the Osiran community in particular. As a general rule, diplomatic engagement should be the primary and sole vehicle for addressing purely internal governing transitions within Game-Created Regions. Military action is a serious commitment that bears significant consequences for all Game-Created Regions; it should be used only as a last resort and not as a means to achieve politically expedient goals.

***Sandaoguo*** · 09-18-2013, 12:17 PM

That wording is good for me. I think the last statement of this type the cabinet made was the UDL one. There's also the one made for the Milo coup. It's not normally this format, but more like a typical press release. This format is more reminiscent of, say, the real world Atlantic Charter, since I've been reading WWII docs for a midterm. :-P

Belschaft · (This post was last modified: 09-18-2013, 12:36 PM by Belschaft.)

Â

Quote:

Statement from the Cabinet of the South Pacific

in regards to the events occruing in Osiris

Â

First, the Cabinet believes in the sovereign right to self-determination of all Game-Created Regions as a fundamental principle and has no interest in dictating which form of government Osiris should take. This is a process that all regions must undertake in the absence of foreign interference.
Â

Second, we respect the determination of Osiris regional leadership that the extant system of governance possessed systemic flaws in need of address. Osiris has experienced a prolonged period of regional instability that has challenged and at times strained inter-regional and organizational relationships. These problems must be addressed so that peace and stability can return to the community.

Â

Third, we are concerned with the dissolution of the Osiris constitution and the concentration of power, even if this new regime is temporary and transitional and regardless of the professed benign intentions. We are troubled that there was no formal vote or plebiscite held nor public discussion before the fact, which caused significant disruption in the community as the dramatic governmental changes were occurring. We believe that liberal democratic governance and institutions in the Game-Created Regions remain the most sustainable and desirable form of regional organisation, within the context of both regional self-determination and an inter-regional diplomatic system. We hope for the speedy drafting and establishment of a new body of regional law in Osiris, as well as new elections to ensure that the voices of the native community are constantly taken into account.

Â

Fourth, we currently oppose any military action that threatens the independence or sovereignty of our ally Osiris. The prospect of outside intervention as discussed among some in the military community is a complex issue that would affect our long-term security interests and infringe upon the rights of the native Osiran community; we would not welcome and would be honor bound to oppose any rash action conducted without the advice and consent of the Game-Created Regions in general and the Osiran community in particular. As a general rule, diplomatic engagement should be the primary and sole vehicle for addressing purely internal governing transitions within Game-Created Regions. Military action is a serious commitment that bears significant consequences for all Game-Created Regions; it should be used only as a last resort and not as a means to achieve politically expedient goals.

Â

Thank You,
The Cabinet of the South Pacific

Â
If the rest of the cabinet signs off on the statement I'll issue it. Glen, can you draft something similar for Lazarus?

***Kris Kringle*** · 09-18-2013, 01:06 PM

Looks good so far. Still I'll read it one last time to be sure in between classes.

***Sandaoguo*** · 09-18-2013, 05:26 PM

Quote:Glen, can you draft something similar for Lazarus?

Â

I can, but I'm not sure you and I have the same thoughts on Lazarus. I don't generally oppose banjecting nations that pose security risks, and I don't limit "security risks" to imminent military attacks. I think the purge was tactically smart, but strategically dumb. I don't think it was really an NPO coordinated action, but I was told that AMOM and Feux talked about it among themselves. So there is an element of cross-regional conspiracy. The more pressing factor in Feux's decision is her (his?) anti-imperialism. AMOM and Feux are close and share the same ideas about imperialists, and as far as I know Karpathos wasn't involved in the decision. If evidence comes to light that this was an NPO action, I obviously disapprove of it, since that borders on an act of war and shows a high level of corruption in Lazarus due to foreign influences.

Â

Also, the banjections were completely legal in Lazarus, so the only opposition we can take is political in nature. I'm critical of the way this was done, and it wasn't smart for AMOM to characterize it as a purge. That word has a specific meaning in gameplay and banjecting 3 people doesn't meet the criteria as I understand them. Lazarus has the sovereign right to determine that imperialists pose security risks and exert too much influence, and thus must be dealt with according to domestic law. TSP did the same thing with the UDL, minus the banjections, though I think there's a qualitative differences between what the UDL was doing here and what TNI was doing in Lazarus. Balder rooted out the UDL, too.

Â

I think the driving force of opposition to Feux's action is simply the political environment being favorable to the UIAF members, with the secondary aspect being how AMOM described it as a purge. I view imperialism as a general security threat and I think they do wield influence in GCRs, so I don't think I'm going to meet head-to-head with the Cabinet on this.

Â

I can write a statement regardless, if you just like the way I write statements. Tongue

Belschaft · 09-18-2013, 05:54 PM

Quote:Â

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Belschaft" data-cid="105643" data-time="1379507645">
<div>
Glen, can you draft something similar for Lazarus?

Â

I can, but I'm not sure you and I have the same thoughts on Lazarus. I don't generally oppose banjecting nations that pose security risks, and I don't limit "security risks" to imminent military attacks. I think the purge was tactically smart, but strategically dumb. I don't think it was really an NPO coordinated action, but I was told that AMOM and Feux talked about it among themselves. So there is an element of cross-regional conspiracy. The more pressing factor in Feux's decision is her (his?) anti-imperialism. AMOM and Feux are close and share the same ideas about imperialists, and as far as I know Karpathos wasn't involved in the decision. If evidence comes to light that this was an NPO action, I obviously disapprove of it, since that borders on an act of war and shows a high level of corruption in Lazarus due to foreign influences.

Â

Also, the banjections were completely legal in Lazarus, so the only opposition we can take is political in nature. I'm critical of the way this was done, and it wasn't smart for AMOM to characterize it as a purge. That word has a specific meaning in gameplay and banjecting 3 people doesn't meet the criteria as I understand them. Lazarus has the sovereign right to determine that imperialists pose security risks and exert too much influence, and thus must be dealt with according to domestic law. TSP did the same thing with the UDL, minus the banjections, though I think there's a qualitative differences between what the UDL was doing here and what TNI was doing in Lazarus. Balder rooted out the UDL, too.

Â

I think the driving force of opposition to Feux's action is simply the political environment being favorable to the UIAF members, with the secondary aspect being how AMOM described it as a purge. I view imperialism as a general security threat and I think they do wield influence in GCRs, so I don't think I'm going to meet head-to-head with the Cabinet on this.

Â

I can write a statement regardless, if you just like the way I write statements. Tongue

Â

</div>
</blockquote>
I like to redraft other peoples statements rather than write the first version myself. doubly so when there is a divergent opinion. I think we're broadly agreed on principle on this issue, the difference being that I'm more concerned about the political reality and TSP's own interests whilst you tend to stick stubbornly to principle even if it gets you kicked out of a region.

***Sandaoguo*** · (This post was last modified: 09-25-2013, 07:23 PM by Sandaoguo.)

So it's been a week since we released our statement. Within that time, the situations seems have to begun changing. Biyah no longer supports Asta and resigned from his positions. Charax agrees with Biyah. Campina was kicked out for not wanting to raid a founderless region.

Â

In addition to that, there are a lot of troubling signs. It doesn't look like Asta plans on the constitution being rewritten, and her statements sounds a lot like she plans on staying in power for as long as she can. Her vision for Osiris is basically anarchy, with everybody doing whatever they want and having unlimited authority to make it happen. I'm not sure how we even commit to our treaty, since there's no clear representative of Osiris to talk to about it. Foreign Affairs is separate from the military is separate from the Pharaoh. Everything is separate, uncoordinated... How do we know that something we negotiate today with Foreign Affairs will be upheld by the military, or not dissolved by Asta? We're going to have to negotiate with all three governors.

Â

Do we really think this is a stable situation for our ally? :x

Â

edit: Asta clarified in the Gameplay forums that Osiris will have a highly centralized government, with her basically making all the decisions. I'm not sure how much stock we can put into that post, though.Â http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic....#p16722300

Â

Also, claims that everybody supports Asta seem to be exaggerated:Â http://s13.zetaboards.com/Osiris_NS/topic/7105898/1/

Belschaft · 09-25-2013, 07:53 PM

There isn't an Osiran government at this point. A few people are carving out their private realms, like Cormac and George in the military - where it's essentially just TBR flying Osiran flags - but there is neither direction, policy discussion or purpose to anything. It's simply chaos, with Asta sitting in the Delegates seat doing bugger all.

Â

At this point in time I see no real reason to support her regime.

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