Appealing to fellow region-mates

[Todd McCloud]

Folks, I've been a member of this community since early 2008. I've been with you through massive regime changes, two forum moves, two major coups, a few crazy drama-stuff happening, and various court cases. It's been a wild ride, but if there's one thing I've been able to take home, it's at the end of the day, we're still TSP. We're still a community. While we may not agree on every issue, or inherently "like" people here, we're all inclined to work together for the betterment of each other and for the betterment of the region, playing in the true spirit of the game. And we like to have fun too.

 

In early 2011, I was voted in as an administrator. I interpreted this role as protecting the regional forums for the sake of the community. I was to answer to the community, not to the root, not to an old powerful admin, etc. Nothing more, nothing less. We should act as a team and do what's right for the community. This has been a mission statement of mine wherever I am an administrator. I've received some flack over the years for that interpretation, but my conscience is clear, and I don't feel I've done anything wrong.

 

On Sunday, the root admin posted a statement regarding the unilateral removal of over half of the current admin team. His actions were justified, in his opinion, by these members being inactive. I personally do not have a problem with this reason. The part I do have a problem with was how it was handled. No one was notified of this change, asked about it, voted on it, etc. This was done by only one person  in a team of several, one person who thought he was above the rest and above the community. One person who felt he alone was able to call the shots. This is the first time in nearly ten years we've had one person remove half of the "team" without a single vote.

 

I cannot support the above action because I feel this contradicts my mission statement as an administrator. I've tried to fight it, but to no avail. Since I believe administrators ultimately serve the community and the people therein, I beseech you, what do you think about this situation? Do you believe this is a callous action? Do you think this is wrong? Is this something you'd like to see continue, to have one person ultimately call the shots in your region independent of any other member here? What should we do about this, and what should we do to fix it?

 

Thank you for your time.

[Phoenix King]

I support Todd in his noble crusade to fight tyranny.

[Hileville]

This isn't a noble crusade.  If Todd wants to be admin again he can be if he is going to be active and tackle admin tasks like everyone else.  The current admins with the exception of SB are in agreement that we are not going to restore the rest of the retired admins until they are able to do the same.

 

If people don't like this I will gladly step down so I can fully retire from NS when somebody buys hosting and an IPB license.

[People United Together]

I volunteer to pay for whomever TSP elects.  :drink:

[Todd McCloud]

Funny how the current admins are in agreement with this after the fact. If one takes the time to ask and convene, why not do it before the action takes place?

 

I'm not asking for people to retire, so that argument can quickly end. This isn't hard to do, all I am saying is we need to make these team decisions. Why is this hard? Why does this need to change August 24th, 2013 when we've done things the exact opposite for the past 9-10 years?

[Punk D]

I support the action taken by Hile. Citizen apps languished for weeks with a robust admin team around. Perhaps there is one admin whose job it is to review apps, and that might be what y'all choose to do here, but happening in a feeder is just not cool at all. 

 

Todd - I believe Hile is willing to restore you or anyone else who can commit to being an active admin. To me, I don't see that as tyranny. Instead I see you guys having a disagreement about process. 

 

Hileville - Grossly Inactive Admin Team leads to Admin Removal

Todd - Grossly Inactive Admin Team leads to Vote on Admin Removal leads to "Some" Admin Removal

 

You both would end at the same spot, imo, because inactive admins are just taking up space. Where you disagree is on how we get to the removal of administrators. This should be able to be resolved and while Hile's act was swift and decisive he's more than willing to reverse course for those former admins who are willing to be active.

[Southern Bellz]

I understand why HEM is no longer an admin, but I don't really see the issues with the other ones being admins.  They are the most trustworthy people in the region, who have held up this government for literally years.  If anything happened, this is the core group we know we can count on.

 

Todd do you want to be an admin?  If you want to be one, I see no problem with you being one.  You are a much more valuable admin than I am.

 

In fact, I am a rather shitty administrator.  

[Todd McCloud]

For me, it's a matter of principle. I'd like to be, but I also don't want to be a part of something where important decisions like this are done unilaterally.

[Drugged Monkeys]

Activity is the issue here, not the past actions of a person.


The same goes for government elected officials, if they are not active then they don't need to be in the post.

[Southern Bellz]

Is activity the issue?

The security issue of having too many admins has not been justified.

If anything, having Todd around for something urgent is better for our security.

As far as activity, I have not been called out on lack of administrator duties. You can't call Todd an inactive admin without calling me am embarrassingly poor admin

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[Drugged Monkeys]

You have just been removed as delegate of the region, so I'd say your activity level was a little higher.

[Libetarian Republics]

I'm not a TSP regular but I'll make some comments.

 

One, being an inactive administrator is a reliability that the ROOT administrator has to take in account for in forum security. Just being a forum administrator is a security threat; hence why administrators are always considered to be handpicked and arguably a trustworthy core group of people to handle the forums. I don't know how to exactly explain it but in the North Pacific recently, Eluvatar (one of the ROOT administrators actually) was removed as admin from his account because he was inactive and therefore posed a security risk. I guess you can say in essence inactive administrators are a security risk because there's no way to monitor their behavior.

 

Two, Hile had to make a split decision in order to maintain forum security. In essence, forum administrators should indeed work as a team and make decisions as one but also note that Hile pretty much owns this forum. I understand that Hile isn't superior to any other administrators but in this forum, he is; because that's his job. 

[Southern Bellz]

You can't just say having an inactive admin is a security risk without saying why it is one.

No way to monitor their behavior? Huh?

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[Tsrill]

On the one hand I don't mind having access to the admin CP anymore...I already toyed with the idea of giving up admin status voluntarily.

 

However, I do agree with Todd that this is not quite the way to do it. A warning notice in the admin forum going "look folks, I'm going to cull the admin list, I'm going to revoke admin status of such and such in a weeks notice, speak up if you have a problem with it" would have been much nicer...

 

Trust is really important for the root admin job, and taking unilateral decisions without prior conferring doesn't really improbve the level of trust...

[Todd McCloud]

I'm not a TSP regular but I'll make some comments.

 

One, being an inactive administrator is a reliability that the ROOT administrator has to take in account for in forum security. Just being a forum administrator is a security threat; hence why administrators are always considered to be handpicked and arguably a trustworthy core group of people to handle the forums. I don't know how to exactly explain it but in the North Pacific recently, Eluvatar (one of the ROOT administrators actually) was removed as admin from his account because he was inactive and therefore posed a security risk. I guess you can say in essence inactive administrators are a security risk because there's no way to monitor their behavior.

 

Two, Hile had to make a split decision in order to maintain forum security. In essence, forum administrators should indeed work as a team and make decisions as one but also note that Hile pretty much owns this forum. I understand that Hile isn't superior to any other administrators but in this forum, he is; because that's his job. 

And that's the thing. Hileville may own the forums, but that does not make him this region's keeper. It can be argued that inactive admins could pose a security threat, perhaps, but what is a greater security threat: an inactive administrator, or an administrator who unilaterally removes half of the team without any consent, announcement, or opinion from anyone else, let alone the current team itself?

 

I can tell you which one I believe is more toxic. Because, as we've seen from other inactive administrators, they seemed to be okay with being removed in general, but not okay with how it was done. With respect to Elu, for instance, I'm sure his removal was done due to inactivity, etc. But we don't know how it was done: was it voted on, or did one person just decide "enough's enough" and cut him off?

 

That's getting a bit off-topic: it's TNP's business. TSP can make choices for TSP - it does not need one person controlling it all and shouting "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" It's supposed to be a group. We're supposed to be a team. That's what I signed into, and that's what I will work to protect.

[Todd McCloud]

So by my count, that's four current and former administrators (Bel, Bellz, Tsrill, myself) who do not approve of how this whole situation was orchestrated. I might have missed someone.

[Sandaoguo]

And that's the thing. Hileville may own the forums, but that does not make him this region's keeper. It can be argued that inactive admins could pose a security threat, perhaps, but what is a greater security threat: an inactive administrator, or an administrator who unilaterally removes half of the team without any consent, announcement, or opinion from anyone else, let alone the current team itself?

 

You're arguing in the abstract, but Hileville's actions do have a context. It is not axiomatically wrong that root admin unilaterally removed half the administration team. There is no way to protect against a root admin going rogue. That is simply the inherent danger of the internet. So we base our trust on personal relationships, and those are completely subjective and rooted within direct and greater contexts. This was not some dictatorial action. Hileville was not silencing anybody. Removing you and the others wasn't a political maneuver.

 

So, I'm sorry, but to me you're simply sounding like a disgruntled person insulted that you don't have power over TSP's forums. I think we place ourselves at a much greater risk by allowing a handful of people to be root admins on multiple GCR forums. That's a systemic risk. Some may view you as the most trustworthy person on NationStates, but experience should show us all that the centralization of power in this game is never a good thing. If you want to be a root admin, then TSP should be your home. That's my opinion.

[Todd McCloud]

 

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And that's the thing. Hileville may own the forums, but that does not make him this region's keeper. It can be argued that inactive admins could pose a security threat, perhaps, but what is a greater security threat: an inactive administrator, or an administrator who unilaterally removes half of the team without any consent, announcement, or opinion from anyone else, let alone the current team itself?

 

You're arguing in the abstract, but Hileville's actions do have a context. It is not axiomatically wrong that root admin unilaterally removed half the administration team. There is no way to protect against a root admin going rogue. That is simply the inherent danger of the internet. So we base our trust on personal relationships, and those are completely subjective and rooted within direct and greater contexts. This was not some dictatorial action. Hileville was not silencing anybody. Removing you and the others wasn't a political maneuver.

 

So, I'm sorry, but to me you're simply sounding like a disgruntled person insulted that you don't have power over TSP's forums. I think we place ourselves at a much greater risk by allowing a handful of people to be root admins on multiple GCR forums. That's a systemic risk. Some may view you as the most trustworthy person on NationStates, but experience should show us all that the centralization of power in this game is never a good thing. If you want to be a root admin, then TSP should be your home. That's my opinion.

 

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</blockquote>
If it isn't such a big deal, why wasn't this put to a vote?

 

Look, I've been offered by multiple current administrators to become an administrator again. So let's nip that argument in the bud. That's not the issue here. Nor is it my business to be a root administrator here. I don't really want that. *All* I want is the following:

 

1. All retired adminstrators are restored.
2. Votes will convene toot sweet between administrators, either individually or as a group, to remove or keep administrators. Administrators may be removed, if need be, in the same fashion as they have before this topic was created.

3. A decision will be developed to remedy citizenship - administrators as a group need to hasten that process.

4. Talks will begin on reorganizing forums to streamline them (if needed). I get the feeling that these forums may be a little confusing at first for users - we should work to make them more user-friendly.

 

That doesn't seem like a big deal to me. To me, it seems like... acting for the benefit of the community. But I will leave you with this thought: If these four points would make all of this go away and make everyone (not just myself) happy, why has this not been done? Why is what we're going through now, with all the malcontent and mistrust, better than the above four?

 

As I said earlier, I don't have a problem with removing administrators. I have a problem with how it was done. I don't have a problem with improving forum security. I have a problem if someone decides how to do that for an entire community without any consent. This is not me wanting some kind of perk, or job, or sympathy. This is me simply doing my job, something I said I would do from day one. I don't need a title to do my job.

[Sandaoguo]

Like I said, I think the bigger danger here is the centralization of power in NationStates. I don't see why we need you to be an admin, over somebody who's first priority is TSP.

 

I certainly don't think Hileville's actions were unjust or undemocratic. I think you blew this way out of proportion, not because you care about the process, but because of how it affected you. That's just human. I don't personally think it's reasonable to demand Hileville completely reverse the decision, let alone make demands at all. Decisions about who can be an admin should be based first and foremost on the needs of these forums, then on the trustworthiness of the individual.

 

Trustworthiness encompasses more than just a personal characteristic. It includes conflicts of interests and the inherent dangers of centralizing power and authority. It's an extreme example, but I wouldn't trust Jesus Christ if he had dictatorial powers. I think if you want to help TSP, you can be a global moderator. I think if there's a citizenship backlog, we can also have a special group that has ACP restrictions limited to changing account group memberships. I don't think it's necessary for there to be a ton of full admins, especially if those extra admins have power and connections elsewhere.

[Todd McCloud]

Like I said, I think the bigger danger here is the centralization of power in NationStates. I don't see why we need you to be an admin, over somebody who's first priority is TSP.

 

I certainly don't think Hileville's actions were unjust or undemocratic. I think you blew this way out of proportion, not because you care about the process, but because of how it affected you. That's just human. I don't personally think it's reasonable to demand Hileville completely reverse the decision, let alone make demands at all. Decisions about who can be an admin should be based first and foremost on the needs of these forums, then on the trustworthiness of the individual.

 

Trustworthiness encompasses more than just a personal characteristic. It includes conflicts of interests and the inherent dangers of centralizing power and authority. It's an extreme example, but I wouldn't trust Jesus Christ if he had dictatorial powers. I think if you want to help TSP, you can be a global moderator. I think if there's a citizenship backlog, we can also have a special group that has ACP restrictions limited to changing account group memberships. I don't think it's necessary for there to be a ton of full admins, especially if those extra admins have power and connections elsewhere.

I... don't know if we're seeing eye-to-eye on this. I'm not replacing someone. I'm not demanding I be re-instated, or demanding to grasp at various factions in order to achieve a greater sense of power. I've been offered to be re-instated by a few administrators already. Yet I haven't pulled on that. For all intents and purposes, I'm still "retired" and that's my choice. I'd like to not be retired, but I feel if I do choose to drop all of this, I would be committing hypocrisy, because it would go against what I believe should be standard operating procedures. Not only that, but it would set up bad precedent for future decisions.

 

Think what you want, I cannot change that. You're entitled to your own opinion on the matter, and that's what's great about a community - through this thread, I've learned that some think I'm right, while others think I'm wrong. It's given me a lot to think about, but at the end of the day, I still haven't changed my opinion. I think what happened is wrong and should be remedied. Somehow. Want me here, don't want me here, whatever your stance may be - I don't think this situation was handled properly. And I'm going to fight that. I may lose, might even look silly sometimes, but I'm going to fight that.

[Kris Kringle]

First I will state that I believe that Hileville, as root administrator, has the right to change or otherwise remove the administrative team as long that that isn't done as part of some hidden or political motive. In that sense I don't question his right to remove administrators and don't think a debate is due. That being said...as a matter of trust and respect he should have at least notified the administration team in private if not consulted them, not out of obligation but rather because if would have been the right thing to do. I do not know for sure if the admins that were removed were doing their jobs, and am inclined to not believing so, but in the end I think that Hileville, while not having a formal obligation of notification and consultation, would have benefited from previous notification or even consultation.


 

I do recognise though that it looks like admins were not as active as needed, and thus in the end believe Hileville was right in removing them, though I might not agree as a matter of respect with his method of decision. I don't think at this point it would do well to reinstate the former admins. I think that current and former admins should sort this out in private, as I don't think this is so far a matter of regional concern. Citizenship applications just needed an admin that would attend to them, I don't see how this would need further debate or organisation besides what was done before the current impasse.

[Southern Bellz]

Just a few points. Todd has put the work in here that it is completely unfair to question his value of TSP, even in passing.

Everyone gets a shot here, regardless of background.

Second i have not received any information on how Todd being admin is a security threat that needed unilateral action. I don't want to put Hile on blast if I am speaking out of ignorance.

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[Sandaoguo]

Todd, your first demand is for everybody to be reinstated. You're one of the few upstanding people in this game, but that shouldn't make you a candidate to be a full admin HERE, in a region that's at best secondary to you. People like SB blind themselves to the inherent danger of centralization in NS. You can continue to help here, but I don't see why you need to be a full admin to do so.

[Punk D]

Todd – I feel your pain. I do. One of the reasons I lost my mind several years ago was because I didn’t agree with the process of how things were getting done and like you, I agree that process is just as if not as important as the what actually happens.


 

Having said that, Hileville has stated that he would reinstate you or others should they request. I also believe that having admins fighting amongst themselves in the open forum is really bad for a forum in that admins can certainly do damage to a forum if they feel so inclined.


 

Todd would like to roll back and start the conversation fresh with hileville and the rest of the admin team. It seems to me Hileville is comfortable with his decision and subsequent addendum stating for admins wishing to continue and contribute he has no concerns with them continuing.


 

I’d like to offer a quasi-compromise. How about Todd is reinstated. Again, any other admin who wishes to be reinstated will be reinstated. Next, the admin team develops a protocol for adding and removing admins from the board that is then published to the masses. This way going forward admin and members of TSP know how the process will work. That makes it clear for all. I believe that in emergencies the root admin should still have latitude to act, but the admin team here can decide what to do in those situations.


 

As an admin on the TNP boards, the admission of admins is discussed by the admin team as well as the removal of admins. Not to say that is the process that must be followed everywhere, but I do think it is a process that works.

[Southern Bellz]

How do I blind myself to the dangers of centralization?

Because I believe to judge people on their work in TSP?

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