Appealing to fellow region-mates

[Sandaoguo]

How do I blind myself to the dangers of centralization?


Because I believe to judge people on their work in TSP?

 

Because you, like a lot of other people in GCR governance, look past the inherent dangers by instead focusing on myopic personality characteristics. Todd McCloud may be the most trustworthy person in this game, but on principle it would be bad for him to be a full admin on more than one GCR forum. I think centralization of authority is a huge problem in the whole of GCRs, and pretty much everybody who's been leading the GCRs in the past few years has been part and parcel to the problem.

 

We don't need external caretakers. If we need full admins to counter against the inherent risk that another one might go rogue, then those people should be native to TSP. This region should be their No. 1 priority. If somebody simply wants to help curate and moderate the forums, they can be global moderators. If they want to help with citizenship, then there's a very easy way in IP.Board to restrict their ACP access to changing group memberships. To me, Todd would fit in those groups, rather than being somebody granted full admin status just because you view his contributions as positive. Lots of people make positive contributions to the region. But we shouldn't outsource our forum security to external agencies.

[Todd McCloud]

Todd – I feel your pain. I do. One of the reasons I lost my mind several years ago was because I didn’t agree with the process of how things were getting done and like you, I agree that process is just as if not as important as the what actually happens.


 

Having said that, Hileville has stated that he would reinstate you or others should they request. I also believe that having admins fighting amongst themselves in the open forum is really bad for a forum in that admins can certainly do damage to a forum if they feel so inclined.


 

Todd would like to roll back and start the conversation fresh with hileville and the rest of the admin team. It seems to me Hileville is comfortable with his decision and subsequent addendum stating for admins wishing to continue and contribute he has no concerns with them continuing.


 

I’d like to offer a quasi-compromise. How about Todd is reinstated. Again, any other admin who wishes to be reinstated will be reinstated. Next, the admin team develops a protocol for adding and removing admins from the board that is then published to the masses. This way going forward admin and members of TSP know how the process will work. That makes it clear for all. I believe that in emergencies the root admin should still have latitude to act, but the admin team here can decide what to do in those situations.


 

As an admin on the TNP boards, the admission of admins is discussed by the admin team as well as the removal of admins. Not to say that is the process that must be followed everywhere, but I do think it is a process that works.

I will agree with you - any type of fighting / drama among members of the administration, especially out in the open, is unhealthy. But I felt there was no other recourse. That being said, the dirty laundry has been aired out long enough, and people know my concerns, justified or not. I'd like for this to be over. I'm tired of dealing with it.

 

That being said, integrity is judged not by stubbornness, but by how well one holds to their own values. With that in mind, I am willing to bend a little to bridge the gap. I will withdraw my complaints as long as I am assured this will not happen again, and that any administrators who wish to be reinstated may be. It's not as good as the whole "reset back to where we were", but it's probably the next best thing, and more reasonable. However, I am adding something to this: I want more communication. Had we all be more communicative, this dirtiness could've been avoided.

[tsunamy]

 

I will agree with you - any type of fighting / drama among members of the administration, especially out in the open, is unhealthy. But I felt there was no other recourse. That being said, the dirty laundry has been aired out long enough, and people know my concerns, justified or not. I'd like for this to be over. I'm tired of dealing with it.

 

 

I obvi. missed this thread until now, even though my apathy of the issue probably wouldn't help anyone.

 

That said, I want to point out that I actually think this disagreement is useful. On one level, that's who things change. On a second level, I think it shows a variety of respected opinions in TSP. Win-win as far as I'm concerned.

[Punk D]

With the last two comments, I hope the admin team can get on the same page.

 

TSP has bigger fish to fry, imo. 

 

You guys could solve everything and make me admin. 

[Southern Bellz]

 

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Southern Bellz" data-cid="105053" data-time="1378229025">
<div>
How do I blind myself to the dangers of centralization?


Because I believe to judge people on their work in TSP?

 

Because you, like a lot of other people in GCR governance, look past the inherent dangers by instead focusing on myopic personality characteristics. Todd McCloud may be the most trustworthy person in this game, but on principle it would be bad for him to be a full admin on more than one GCR forum. I think centralization of authority is a huge problem in the whole of GCRs, and pretty much everybody who's been leading the GCRs in the past few years has been part and parcel to the problem.

 

</div>
</blockquote>
 

 

Do you have nations outside of TSP that you play?  If you're going to advocate something like this, at LEAST put your money where your mouth is.

 

Why are you telling me that I need to watch out about centralization?  I pretty much exclusively play NS in TSP and I believe I am one of the few to do so.  Most of our last few delegates, with the exception of B&N, have had pretty big foot prints in other regions and GCRs.

[Southern Bellz]

With the last two comments, I hope the admin team can get on the same page.

 

TSP has bigger fish to fry, imo. 

 

You guys could solve everything and make me admin. 

 

I don't think there are much bigger fish to fry than how our democracy is maintained by the non-elected staff.

 

I think this really isn't even that big of an issue and I suspect that Tsu and Todd will become admins again, and going forward decisions like this will be done by admin vote unless there are pressing security issues.  That will give Hile the ability to act if he needs to, and keeps multiple view points for other decisions.  That being said we should focus on WHY this happened.  The admin burden is too much for Hile and he needs our help, and I think he'll see we are willing to step up to the plate.

[tsunamy]

 

I think this really isn't even that big of an issue and I suspect that Tsu and Todd will become admins again, and going forward decisions like this will be done by admin vote unless there are pressing security issues.  That will give Hile the ability to act if he needs to, and keeps multiple view points for other decisions.  That being said we should focus on WHY this happened.  The admin burden is too much for Hile and he needs our help, and I think he'll see we are willing to step up to the plate.

 

Bellz -- idk if you saw my thoughts in the other thread -- but I did, and still do, think this was a time-crunch decision. (Totally my own interpretation here, I haven't talked to Hile about it.) I think Hile made the decision on the fly in an attempt to make more admin spots available without doubling the number of admins.

 

Either way, it certainly upped activity, so it's a win. (Sorry if I'm being annoyingly upbeat today.)

[Sandaoguo]

Do you have nations outside of TSP that you play?  If you're going to advocate something like this, at LEAST put your money where your mouth is.

No, I don't. I have Glen-Rhodes, which I use time from time in the World Assembly simply so all my resolutions are searchable under one name. GR is currently placed in Kyzikos, since that is merely a puppet storage region. I've maintained for five years my One Citizenship Policy, where I maintain citizenship in only one region at a time.

 

Why are you telling me that I need to watch out about centralization?  I pretty much exclusively play NS in TSP and I believe I am one of the few to do so.  Most of our last few delegates, with the exception of B&N, have had pretty big foot prints in other regions and GCRs.

I'm telling everybody, because GCR leadership for the past few years hasn't addressed the issue. You were part of that leadership and likely will be again in the future. Choosing who our admins are is a part of the broader pattern, and I believe Hileville and the current admins should be wary in giving full admin access to people who don't consider TSP their home region or top priority.

[Punk D]

Oh...Glen-Rhodes...now it all makes sense.

 

Bellz - what I meant by my comment is that, I do not believe trust of the admin team was the issue here. That's a big problem. It does seem, as Tsu noted, that it was more related to a time-crunch. I feel like that is an issue that can and should be resolved among the admins. If it can't then indeed it is a significant problem. 

 

But given how long most of you have worked together in the region, that shouldn't be an issue, imo.

[Hileville]

 

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Punk D" data-cid="105045" data-time="1378221679">
Todd – I feel your pain. I do. One of the reasons I lost my mind several years ago was because I didn’t agree with the process of how things were getting done and like you, I agree that process is just as if not as important as the what actually happens.


 
Having said that, Hileville has stated that he would reinstate you or others should they request. I also believe that having admins fighting amongst themselves in the open forum is really bad for a forum in that admins can certainly do damage to a forum if they feel so inclined.


 
Todd would like to roll back and start the conversation fresh with hileville and the rest of the admin team. It seems to me Hileville is comfortable with his decision and subsequent addendum stating for admins wishing to continue and contribute he has no concerns with them continuing.


 
I’d like to offer a quasi-compromise. How about Todd is reinstated. Again, any other admin who wishes to be reinstated will be reinstated. Next, the admin team develops a protocol for adding and removing admins from the board that is then published to the masses. This way going forward admin and members of TSP know how the process will work. That makes it clear for all. I believe that in emergencies the root admin should still have latitude to act, but the admin team here can decide what to do in those situations.


 
As an admin on the TNP boards, the admission of admins is discussed by the admin team as well as the removal of admins. Not to say that is the process that must be followed everywhere, but I do think it is a process that works.

I will agree with you - any type of fighting / drama among members of the administration, especially out in the open, is unhealthy. But I felt there was no other recourse. That being said, the dirty laundry has been aired out long enough, and people know my concerns, justified or not. I'd like for this to be over. I'm tired of dealing with it.

 

That being said, integrity is judged not by stubbornness, but by how well one holds to their own values. With that in mind, I am willing to bend a little to bridge the gap. I will withdraw my complaints as long as I am assured this will not happen again, and that any administrators who wish to be reinstated may be. It's not as good as the whole "reset back to where we were", but it's probably the next best thing, and more reasonable. However, I am adding something to this: I want more communication. Had we all be more communicative, this dirtiness could've been avoided.
 

</blockquote>
I have already stated that if the admins who were removed are going to actively admin the forum they may have ACP access restored.  If they have no intention on using their powers or won't be active then we will be back at ground zero.  

 

While communication is important the security of the forum trumps everything else.  If decisions need to be swiftly made I am not going to wait for days for admins to respond to my posts like what usually happens.  I understand this is different than how things were done previously but once an active admin staff is back in place things will go back to that method.  If we get into this situation again I will not second guess what needs to be done to protect the forums and make the same decision over again.

 

If the community isn't comfortable with a root admin who is willing to use his powers to protect the forum then I am not the best person for the job.

[Todd McCloud]

This couldn't have waited a few extra days, or even ten minutes to notify the staff / get their thoughts via PM, IRC, etc? Mind you, we went through the whole summer with that status quo. What happened specifically on August 24th where a complete and immediate shut down had to occur? Why go the whole summer doing nothing, then "swiftly" make a decision on the 24th and remove half of the staff, including those who had been active up to that point? Let's see some evidence here.

 

Come on. You're digging yourself a hole here, because that opened up another credibility gap.

[Punk D]

I don't think it's about credibility, I do believe it is a matter of priority. Hileville stated that he took the steps he took because he believed time was of the essence. It's up to the community to agree or disagree with his logic and if the community doesn't, I suppose we'd move along to a different forum. Wouldn't be the first time that has happened in NS. 

 

But what I am seeing is a clear process divergence between you and Hile that appears to be impassable based upon Hile's comments regarding his past actions and potential future actions. Imo, Todd, I agree with your style of adminning but I have no distrust of Hileville to believe he would deep six the forum. Having said that we now know that if you are an admin you could be nixed at any point in time should Hileville make a determination about you. 

 

The only question remains is if the community supports that type of adminng, but I don't believe credibility is the question here. And alas, this issue continues. 

[Todd McCloud]

It appears we have reached some kind of impasse, Punk. Well not between you and I, lol. I think it is clear the philosophies between Hileville and I are quite different. So when I say it's a "lack of credibility", I am trying to apply this circumstance to what I envision is the only mold, which indeed, when measured up to those standards, would cause such negative consequences.

 

About three years ago or so, I was entrusted with the duty to protect these forums. I've done that as an administrator, and I've tried to do that when it was unilaterally removed. It's those core beliefs from prior regimes that shaped my beliefs today. No one person should be "above the rest". Regardless of if it's bad or not, the current state in TSP has been revealed.

 

I can't really argue these semantics anymore. I've stated my case, I've argued the points. The only ones who can really make change are the people. If they don't like this, they can apply the pressure. Not I, not anymore. I've done all I can.

 

 

Or, maybe not. I've managed to give this some extra thought. Maybe the "team" (if you can call it that anymore) needs someone on it who can go to bat for such purposes, for the sake of the group and not the self, in addition to handle other burdens by administrators. In other words, a counterweight to balance out the noted extremes. Such being the case, I am asking for my job back.

[Southern Bellz]

Can someone please, please explain the security issue that required urgent action?

 

I feel like I am missing something.

[tsunamy]

While I'm a bit afraid of adding fuel to this fire ... this is what it looks like to me.

 

I don't think there was a immediate security threat, per se. Yes, we can parse concepts and say that inactivity in a threat in of itself -- especially when it is slowly strangling the region due to inactivity. I think Hile saw something that needed to be done and acted. Period, end of story. I think he's using a threat as justification for his actions.

 

I think what everyone might not realize is that at times, as root admin, you need to go to bat for these things.

 

Yes, Todd, Hile could've send out TGs and to everyone.

And waited a week for a vote.

Or a week for a discussion.

And then a vote.

And then ask for new nominations.

And then hold another round of discussions.

And another vote.

And then maybe we'd had some new admins ...

by Christmas.

 

Yes, we don't want our root admins to have complete control of the process. But, sometimes quick action needs to be taken.

 

I also think we need to give Hile some credit. As much as we don't want this to be about the person, it ultimately is. We can't separate Hile from this role. He has done enormous things for the region and I think that needs to be considered in these discussions.

[Todd McCloud]

Not trying to start anything, Tsu, but based on the timeline presented above, asking people about it before initiating this process would only tack on a week to a process that would go to Christmas. And we're still mum on the whole "big urgent security" issue.

[Sandaoguo]

Even if it wasn't an urgent security concern -- and I'm not seeing how it was, unless there was an imminent threat that one of the removed admins was planning on going rogue -- there is certainly a security concern regardless of any time-sensitive matter. I imagine Hileville thought that having a bunch of inactive admins opened unnecessary weaknesses into TSP's security, especially given recent events in GCRs that put to question the general trustworthiness of people in the game. From a caution point of view, it would be better to act now and ask questions later, because if there was somebody thinking about going rogue (or would spontaneously do it), starting an admin discussion would simply trigger such action.

[Todd McCloud]

Again, if the status quo had been the same all summer (even considering the spam I and others handled during the summer), why wait until August 24th to suddenly put all of this into action? In other words, we went some 90 days (let's just consider summer here - we can go back more but it's not necessary) with the same stuff happening, then, suddenly, August 24th rolls around and half of the administrative team is removed. What happened? What happened that couldn't have waited for the input of at least some of the team?

[Hileville]

Are we really going to continue to beat this topic around? The issue is resolved and there is no reason to continue this.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 4

[Todd McCloud]

It would seem there are a few pertinent questions that have not been resolved.

[tsunamy]

Not trying to start anything, Tsu, but based on the timeline presented above, asking people about it before initiating this process would only tack on a week to a process that would go to Christmas. And we're still mum on the whole "big urgent security" issue.

 

Todd -- I was clearly being hyperbolic with the timeline going until Christmas.

 

As it stands, this thread will go on until Christmas, too.

[Escade]

Wow, drama has racheted up in TSP these past few days.  Is something in the air or in the water?

[Southern Bellz]

It happens, the positive note is that its fueled by our passion for improving TSP.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 4

[Rebel-topia]

Wow, drama has racheted up in TSP these past few days. Is something in the air or in the water?

I'm surprised the drama llama hasn't shown its face since Milo's coop ended... As it stands, TSP is the native lands of the drama llama...