Review of Extant Treaties

[Cormac]

Cormac, doesn't UDL have a treaty with TEP?  Spiritus, Lazarus, Mordor - what organization are they working with?  I've met interesting people from all three of these regions who I actually remember.  I assumed that defender in their case means UDL, so please correct me if that isn't so. What other major defenders are there?

 

UDL had a treaty with TEP, but the treaty was cancelled after The East Pacific Sovereign Army (EPSA) raided several non-fascist regions for the purpose of closing their embassies with The Greater German Reich (GGR), the most prominent Nazi region in NationStates. To be fair, this was not a matter of the UDL ending a treaty with a region because it raided; it was a complicated dispute over what exactly the treaty required of EPSA in regard to raiding and what it required in regard to the UDL defending regions EPSA was raiding. It wasn't entirely the UDL's fault, or entirely TEP's. Regardless, the treaty was repealed.

 

UDL's only treaty is with Stargate, as far as I know.

 

The UDL is its own organization, comprised of individual defenders. It's a non-regional organization (meaning it has no region) and it has no member regions because it's comprised of individuals.

 

Spiritus and Mordor are both their own defender regions, independent of any organizational alliance at this time; other such regions (that have been recently active, at least) include but aren't limited to 10000 Islands (their military is the Ten Thousand Islands Treaty Organization, or TITO), Texas, and Wintreath.

 

Lazarus and The Rejected Realms, among others, are member regions of the Founderless Regions Alliance (FRA), an interregional defender organization predominantly comprised of regional, rather than individual, members -- though the FRA does allow individuals who aren't in member regions to join the Rangers.

 

I hope that helped.

[StGeorgie]

Cormac, doesn't UDL have a treaty with TEP?  Spiritus, Lazarus, Mordor - what organization are they working with?  I've met interesting people from all three of these regions who I actually remember.  I assumed that defender in their case means UDL, so please correct me if that isn't so. What other major defenders are there?

UDL's treaty with TEP lasted all of two minutes. Spiritus, Lazarus and Mordor frequently work on their own, together or with other defender organisations - FRA and TITO.

 

 

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="StGeorgie" data-cid="114032" data-time="1389745485">
According to that guy who is sniffing around you in IRC all the time, (in sex crime parlance, 'grooming'), the UDL is a one person organisation when it comes to big liberations.

 

Insinuations, no matter how weak, that anybody is engaged in real-world illegal behavior, especially of a sexual nature, are not, to me, welcome on these forums. It is absolutely despicable that you are accusing a player in this game of "grooming" another player. Not only is it just disgusting, Georgie, but it's violation of the criminal code of TSP and Unibot could file against you in our court. I don't care if you can't stand Unibot. This kind of crap is taking it way too far.

 


</blockquote>
It's a pattern of behaviour from Harmoneia to Rachel Anumia to Earth and now to Escade. If you think I've violated any criminal code, bring me up on charges, I will happily destroy them. I will bring up three years of past behaviour spanning multiple regions.

[Sandaoguo]

I declare Unibot's Law:

 

<p style="margin-left:40px;">As a discussion involving or in any way about Unibot grows longer, the probability that somebody will resort to accusing Unibot of criminal sexual offenses reaches 1.

[StGeorgie]

There is no smoke without fire.

[Unibot]

I've fought for sometime to get sexism and sexual abuse out of the game -- I do believe it is common in the higher echelons of power in NationStates. Harmoneia and Earth and I shared similar feminist beliefs on this matter and we often discussed it at great length. Escade and I only talk infrequently. I made a tasteless joke about Rachel once, apologized and then have seen it used as an example by her of me being a soulless cow for the rest of eternity -- I certainly never "groomed" Rachel. Harmoneia, Earth and Rachel were also all established players when I meant them - so I don't see how I could have "groomed" them. It's a really harsh accusation and I'm offended by it. But I doubt you care. Nice dig though, MadJack. 
 
For those interested in learning more about how feminism can be advanced in NationStates, I encourage you take a look at the essay I wrote on the subject a while back. I thank Earth for largely being my inspiration for writing the piece -- her appalling tales of political repression and sexism in game really helped motivate that work.

[Hileville]

Admin WARNING:  If any of the admins see one more reference or accusation of sexual abuse the moderation policy on such will be enforced and the user will face a significant amount of warning points and possible banning.

 

<b>Further, if a Global Moderator tells you to stop YOU STOP.</b>

[Escade]

Back on topic:

 

This is the response from Evil Wolf:

 

"I can not respond to that topic, and I can't even see the discussion topic. I am personally furious that I am only now being notified of this, days after the vote already started and months after the discussion was first raised, apparently.

 

You and I have spoken several times and it did not occur to you to mention this before now?

 

Consider this my formal objection and LWU's official displeasure to the treatment we have been given in this matter.

 

-Wolf"

 

Anyone want to explain what is going on here?  Perhaps we should pause and give them a chance to discuss? 

[Sandaoguo]

Anyone want to explain what is going on here?  Perhaps we should pause and give them a chance to discuss? 

 

Apparently nobody from LWU has citizenship in TSP, and since these matters are discussed a citizenship-restricted forum, nobody from LWU ever saw the discussions. It's my suspicion that no LWU members actually visited the forums at all during the period where the Assembly discussed on-and-off again repealing the treaty. Those discussions have been going on since Milograd's second term.

 

It's unfortunate that LWU wasn't ever notified, but it doesn't change the underlying facts about the treaty repeal. I don't believe a vote can be stopped once it's underway, anyways, so there's not much we can do now.

[StGeorgie]

We should definitely pause, if possible. If LWU wasn't actually informed, at any point, in the months discussions have been going on, then something has gone very very wrong, and we should definitely look at that.

[Sandaoguo]

We should definitely pause, if possible. If LWU wasn't actually informed, at any point, in the months discussions have been going on, then something has gone very very wrong, and we should definitely look at that.

 

Like I said, I don't think there's any legal means to stop a vote once it begins. Also, I'm not sure LWU was never notified. Regardless, it was the sense of the Assembly that LWU was a defunct organization, so it would make sense that nobody thought to notify a defunct organization that we were repealing the treaty.

[Cormac]

If the Delegate wishes for more time to discuss this with LWU, I can't speak for anyone else but I'll happily change my own vote to Nay. If talks with LWU don't work out we can always repeal the treaty later.

 

I personally see no merit to a treaty with LWU and I don't think Wolf has any legitimate complaint here, but if the Delegate wants more time I think the Assembly should grant it.

[Escade]

Yes, I'd definitely say that I'm changing my vote to Nay. I'd say consider it for the following reasons.

 

They may very well be a defunct organization but it is courteous that if we considered them worthy of a treaty at some point that we also explain why its no longer working and give them a chance to negotiate.

 

It also reflects badly on us if we fecklessly dispose of treaties. 

 

Finally, we may return to this exact same point in let's say a week but at least with a clearer conscience. 

[Cormac]

I agree with Escade and moreover, even if I didn't, I believe in giving the Cabinet plenty of room to deal with other regions. Changed my vote to Nay.

[Southern Bellz]

I urge everyone to vote no, so we can give LWU a chance to discuss, and have a proper, informed vote.

[Belschaft]

I must say this is a rather tedious and unsurprising argument. Quite shockingly Unibot and Glen, arch-Defender ideologues, object to the idea of us having an alliance with TNI regardless of the facts and are promoting as the 'better' alternative relations with people who don't like us in the case of TRR, and people who have routinely fucked us and our friends over in the case of UDL.

 

UDL would probably take a treaty with us no matter what we did, simply because of how they operate, but TRR wouldn't. They don't want better relations with us, and have made that clear - anyone who suggests otherwise either hasn't been paying attention or is lying.

[Lord Ravenclaw]

Re: http://forums.thesouthpacific.org/topic/...ntry114043

 

I'd like to thank Cormac for a very thorough and informative post on the various defender factions. I could not have put it better myself.

[Sandaoguo]

I kind of remember a Global Moderator and an Admin telling everybody to stop attacking each other and return to the topic of LWU.

[Unibot]

I must say this is a rather tedious and unsurprising argument. Quite shockingly Unibot and Glen, arch-Defender ideologues, object to the idea of us having an alliance with TNI regardless of the facts and are promoting as the 'better' alternative relations with people who don't like us in the case of TRR, and people who have routinely fucked us and our friends over in the case of UDL.

 

UDL would probably take a treaty with us no matter what we did, simply because of how they operate, but TRR wouldn't. They don't want better relations with us, and have made that clear - anyone who suggests otherwise either hasn't been paying attention or is lying.

From the OP of this thread:

 

I do not personally support an alliance between ourselves and an imperialist region; I do not believe that such an arrangement is in keeping with our ideals and principles, most notably democracy and regional sovereignty.

 

Sorry, who's the "Arch-Defender" now?

[Escade]

TSPers, I wanted to inform you that I have spoken to Blue_Wolf.

 

We discussed our relations with LWU and the reason for the treaty repeal.

 

I'd like to follow through with the repeal now that we have given our ally a chance to understand.  We look forward to LWU working with NSA and rebuilding to the point where they can once again become a viable ally. 

 

I'm glad at how quickly we were able to work this way out and feel like protocol has been followed. 

 

[Lord Ravenclaw]

The OP of this thread is dated: Posted 18 April 2013 - 08:07 AM

 

A lot has happened since that date.

[Unibot]

Haha, I just remembered about LWU. In 2011, they worked with GGR (or one of the Nazi groups - maybe Nazi Europe) to hold Anarchy. 

 

Just another reason to consider not wanting relations with them...

[Cormac]

Haha, I just remembered about LWU. In 2011, they worked with GGR (or one of the Nazi groups - maybe Nazi Europe) to hold Anarchy. 

 

Just another reason to consider not wanting relations with them...

 

Aye, I mentioned this to Escade on IRC earlier. Two of our treaty allies, Europeia and The New Inquisition, withdrew their support of that operation because LWU was allowing GGR to participate. They haven't directly worked with LWU since and Wolf is persona non grata in Europeia, possibly in TNI as well.

 

To be fair, Wolf did also allow the use of LWU flags for sleepers in a (failed) TNP-led operation to invade Nazi Europe in 2013. But that doesn't erase LWU's acceptance of support from GGR in 2011 and I think it's definitely another valid reason to end this alliance -- at least until such a time as LWU has demonstrated that it absolutely will not work with Nazis in the future.

[Punk D]

If we have a treatied allied partner and start voting to end the treaty without having contacted them in months, it looks bad on us. 

 

To me, from a practical standpoint we are allied with LWU in name only, but Evil Wolf is not a difficult persona to get hold of and this conversation should have happened ages ago. I'm glad Escade has had the conversation and we can move forward. 

[Sandaoguo]

If we have a treatied allied partner and start voting to end the treaty without having contacted them in months, it looks bad on us. 

 

Again, the understanding of the Assembly was that LWU was a defunct organization. It does not look bad for us to not attempt to contact an organization we no longer knew existed. In the future, we will attempt to contact any region or organization with which we have a treaty we are contemplating repealing, regardless of what we believe is their current status of existence.

[Punk D]

 

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Punk D" data-cid="114101" data-time="1389792205">
<div>
If we have a treatied allied partner and start voting to end the treaty without having contacted them in months, it looks bad on us. 

 

Again, the understanding of the Assembly was that LWU was a defunct organization. It does not look bad for us to not attempt to contact an organization we no longer knew existed. In the future, we will attempt to contact any region or organization with which we have a treaty we are contemplating repealing, regardless of what we believe is their current status of existence.

 

</div>
</blockquote>
 I'd suggest that it looks very bad on us if we believed our treatied allied is defunct when they are not and we make no attempts to contact them. Had we made a statement to the world that LWU was "defunct" and that is why we ended our relationship, I'd say we would have had some considerable egg on our face.

 

However, I do believe that your approach will ensure that a similar situation does not occur in the future. Does anyone know where the understanding that LWU was defunct came from?