The South Pacific - moving on from the past.

[Unibot]

Unibot, I know that Milograd

 

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The only reason why we haven't gotten over it is because the pro-TNI Old Guard of TSP have continued to bring up the Milo Coup rhetoric to divide the region - that's their main propaganda piece. Milo = bad. Lazarus = bad. FRA = bad. TNI = good.

 

If we didn't have that voice constantly whispering in our ears to get angry about Milograd once more, we would be pursuing relations with the strongest of the GCRs (at the time of the writing) and not letting TNI or Milograd's unfortunate history get in the way. 

 

Comparing The Empire with Milograd is ridiculous. Georgie pardoned The Empire, the day after - and he did so to avoid civil war according to him. This is the exact opposite situation, Milograd's coup has been an opportunity for politicians here to divide public opinion and politically capitalize. Milograd's coup lasted a few weeks, these opportunists threaten the entire future of The South Pacific. 

 

Are you seriously going to continue the script of blaming people you don't agree with for all of TSP problems while defending the biggest criminal in the region's history? (Which I would imagine has a lot to do with Milo declaring Laz's loyalty to defending).  

 

Everyone is tired of this.  Every time you don't agree with someone you just attack them personally.  Maybe we could move on if you didn't personally insult them and blame people

 

For the record, the NSA just had a deployment with the LLA.  So keep speaking in ignorance about the 'old guard' while some of us actually have make moves for both regions to move on together.

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I do believe that "Milograd" as an issue is a political opportunity for some to try to isolate TSP from Lazarus and NPO (and by extension the FRA). That's why I believe some politicians here have continued to poke the conscience of the region for the past few months trying to remind us all of how angry we should be at Milograd. "Angry" makes for stupid and unwise FA.

 

As of consequence, the region hasn't gotten over Milograd and probably will not until the imperialist political war in the GCRs ends or when Milograd resigns as delegate. At that point, hatred and contempt for Milograd will not serve anyone's political interests.

[Sandaoguo]

Escade, while I appreciate your attempts at smoothing out situations, in this instance I don't think it's the kind of talk we should be having. Sweeping this stuff under the rug is just delaying an inevitable explosion. Belschaft needs to stop accusing other players of attacking "veterans" and insinuating that we're cut from the same cloth as Milograd just because we raise questions about power. If we can't talk about it, if we can't talk about things that make people uncomfortable, then we're setting this community up for a more explosive fight in the future.

[Escade]

GR,

 

Once again, instead of hijacking a thread that is not about Belschaft, open a new conversation with specifics, citing evidence. What I've learned is that it is sometimes best to point to evidence (a forum post, etc.) and ask, what did you mean by this?  Things can be misconstrued and also many times I, or perhaps others, will speak with emotion instead of reason.  

 

First, point to something problematic that is concretely located somewhere. Only attribute words or feelings to people who have clearly expressed them. Give them a chance to respond to concerns instead of attack.  There is a problem of too much, "he said, she said," without directly talking to the people involved. We aren't in high school or trying out for the next Mean Girls movie. 

 

For example, I learned about this thing called regionalism. I was very excited about it and discussed it in many places. Some players though that meant I was going to bring martial law and regionalism into TSP. Nope, not at all.  I'm merely exploring an idea.  Just yesterday one of my puppets went to a region who's founder I met at the world's fair.  So technically I have entered into the world of cosmopolitanism.  I'm trying different things out.

 

If you have any pressing concerns open a new thread, as is your right, post specific details and discuss. If you feel that systemic oppression is a problem in TSP bring up a few examples in a thread, clearly outline what the problem is and why it is and advertise the discussion on the RMB, etc. 

 

This thread is about Milograd and our thoughts on his status in TSP.

[Unibot]

Perhaps I am being too cynical about many of our citizens, who are just legitimately upset about what Milograd did. Thank you for reminding me we're not all opportunists, Escade. You play the game long enough, everyone starts looking suspicious. 

[Kris Kringle]

Just remember it's still a game guys. Like Escade said, take it easy and let's try to get along. :)

[Libetarian Republics]

By any means, I rather see TSP be a little more open towards friendly relationships with Lazarus despite Milograd holding political influence over there rather than welcoming back Milograd back to our shores. It is indeed an awkward proposal but it is nonetheless better than pushing to either extremes; for one it gives time for this region to heal on its own while pursuing strong FA abroad.

[Unibot]

By any means, I rather see TSP be a little more open towards friendly relationships with Lazarus despite Milograd holding political influence over there rather than welcoming back Milograd back to our shores. It is indeed an awkward proposal but it is nonetheless better than pushing to either extremes; for one it gives time for this region to heal on its own while pursuing strong FA abroad.

True.

[Southern Bellz]

 

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Unibot, I know that Milograd

 

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Unibot" data-cid="113607" data-time="1389483823">
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The only reason why we haven't gotten over it is because the pro-TNI Old Guard of TSP have continued to bring up the Milo Coup rhetoric to divide the region - that's their main propaganda piece. Milo = bad. Lazarus = bad. FRA = bad. TNI = good.

 

If we didn't have that voice constantly whispering in our ears to get angry about Milograd once more, we would be pursuing relations with the strongest of the GCRs (at the time of the writing) and not letting TNI or Milograd's unfortunate history get in the way. 

 

Comparing The Empire with Milograd is ridiculous. Georgie pardoned The Empire, the day after - and he did so to avoid civil war according to him. This is the exact opposite situation, Milograd's coup has been an opportunity for politicians here to divide public opinion and politically capitalize. Milograd's coup lasted a few weeks, these opportunists threaten the entire future of The South Pacific. 

 

Are you seriously going to continue the script of blaming people you don't agree with for all of TSP problems while defending the biggest criminal in the region's history? (Which I would imagine has a lot to do with Milo declaring Laz's loyalty to defending).  

 

Everyone is tired of this.  Every time you don't agree with someone you just attack them personally.  Maybe we could move on if you didn't personally insult them and blame people

 

For the record, the NSA just had a deployment with the LLA.  So keep speaking in ignorance about the 'old guard' while some of us actually have make moves for both regions to move on together.

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</blockquote>
 

I do believe that "Milograd" as an issue is a political opportunity for some to try to isolate TSP from Lazarus and NPO (and by extension the FRA). That's why I believe some politicians here have continued to poke the conscience of the region for the past few months trying to remind us all of how angry we should be at Milograd. "Angry" makes for stupid and unwise FA.

 

As of consequence, the region hasn't gotten over Milograd and probably will not until the imperialist political war in the GCRs ends or when Milograd resigns as delegate. At that point, hatred and contempt for Milograd will not serve anyone's political interests.

 

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I honestly don't even know what you are talking about anymore.  What 'GCR imperialist political war' is anyone in this region advocating for?  We are not engaged in any acts of aggression against any GCR, nor is a single person advocating it.

 

I don't know what TNI, the NPO, the FRA have to do with Milograd.  I do know that you are using the same tactics Milograd used here.  This is the second thread in a row where you have made divisive comments about the'The Old Guard'.

[Hileville]

I think I should also point out that we aren't close to the FRA was due to the events of the Sedge coup.  Milograd and the NPO have nothing to do with it.

[Unibot]

The FRA deployed to liberate against Sedge.  >_>

[Unibot]

 

 

I don't know what TNI, the NPO, the FRA have to do with Milograd.  I do know that you are using the same tactics Milograd used here.  This is the second thread in a row where you have made divisive comments about the'The Old Guard'.

 

Let me explain:

 

The fallout between TSP-NPO relations centered around Milograd's actions and NPO's apparent apathy towards it.

 

The fallout between Lazarus-TSP  relations centered around Milograd's actions and Lazarus's apparent apathy towards it.

 

TNI is at war with FRA.

 

Lazarus is now a member of the FRA.

 

TNI is in a political war with NPO.

 

Therefore it makes sense to continue to push the issue of "Milograd" to further drive a stake between TSP and NPO, Lazarus and, as of consequence, The FRA. 

[Penguin]

Just so I can maybe make this clear to myself.... Not every issue we have in TSP spawned from Milo. Yes he was a fool and No i don't think he should EVER be allowed back here, but he isn't the reason for all of those issues. Uni your logic confuses me, as it almost always does. but that's ok becuase it's Your logic and you can have it  Anyway,I don't think that any of this is relevant at the moment in this thread anyway

 

The simple point of this thread is about Milo and if he should ever be allowed back. That. Is. All. The rest of this stuff is just bogus additives that don't belong. I say bogus not as an insult but more as a term of take it some where else and stop making clutter. His actions are unforgivable in My opinion.  You are either for or against his coming back. Either is fine as it is an opinion of the person who has it. Hopefully we can make info available so that people make informed choices and we can keep personal feelings out of it. 

[Rebel-topia]

I dont think he should EVER be allowed back into this region. And that statement has NOTHING to do with him being Delegate in Laz. It does, however, have everything to do with his utter disregard for residents of the region, and the direct and utter disregard of our laws.

 

While Carta had done much good for TSP regional affairs, Milograd has done nothing but thrown hissyfits when he wasnt elected Delegate (THREE times). And, after his first, election, resign... Then less than a month later, win an election, only to coup the region. This region SHOULD have trust problems after something like that happens, and 8 months is not enough time for a region to heal.

[Unibot]

He didn't throw "hissyfits" when he wasn't elected Delegate. Milograd was a pretty beloved member of the region when he couped - that was what made it shocking as it was. 

 

Furthermore, Carta = Milograd. >_>

[Rebel-topia]

I know Carta = Milograd. But, as Carta, he was a nice guy. Once he started using Milograd, he became a dick, IMO.

 

And he did throw hissyfits. He ran for elections, and, after not winning, left the region for 2 or 3 months. I know there were personal problem in his life, but, at that point, you dont run for Delegate in a feeder if RL is as bad as he and others said it was. I lost respect for him after he continually ran for delegate and lost, and disappeared until a month or less of election time...

[StGeorgie]

In December 2012, a very stubborn individual (hi Glen!), a citizen of Osiris at the time, was adamant in his insistence that Osiris should not just forgive and forget the coup that Neo Kervoskia, Biyah, and Dalimbar had just perpetrated against Osiris. He argued that was a recipe for instability, that it sent the wrong message to them regarding the acceptability of their actions as well as to future would-be coupers. It sent the wrong message to Osiris more broadly, as well, that if you were part of the power elite there is no action that won't be forgiven and forgotten. I was among those who refused to listen to him, and one of my greatest regrets in NationStates is not listening to him as it likely would have spared Osiris all of the instability of 2013.

Optimistic revisionist crap. Had I not pardoned them, the civil war that happened in December of 2013 and January of 2014 would've happened then, with Empire in a much stronger position - and much more active - than it was and is now. With Earth away at the time, I would not have had the influence - nor would I have the support of the citizenry in doing so - to remove Empire from the region.

 

If he wants to be apart of Nationstates gameplay, he has to be sorry, which creates a moral hazard for an apology that may or may not be sincere.

Um... you don't get to decide who is part of NS gameplay and isn't.

[Unibot]

Optimistic revisionist crap. Had I not pardoned them, the civil war that happened in December of 2013 and January of 2014 would've happened then, with Empire in a much stronger position - and much more active - than it was and is now. With Earth away at the time, I would not have had the influence - nor would I have the support of the citizenry in doing so - to remove Empire from the region.

 

 

Nonsense. Earth was back at home only a few days later later - Quad, you, Earth and I were all discussing what had happened. You had options.  I told you a pardon was a bad idea then and I stand by that. Quad, in particular, kept changing his story in regards to whether he was in favor or not in favor of the pardon. He told me the exact opposite of what you said he told you.

[Rebel-topia]

Lets get this back on topic, please. This isnt about what happened outside of TSP. This is about allowing Milo back here...

[tsunamy]

Lets get this back on topic, please. This isnt about what happened outside of TSP. This is about allowing Milo back here...

 

I think this is D.O.A. Let's get rid of this thread.

[Punk D]

To me the question isn’t about ‘letting go of the past’, Old Guard vs New Guard, the question is how much time should someone be punished for treason? In my opinion, less than a year is not sufficient. I have a unique perspective on this issue having been banned from these boards for many years. When I was delegate of TWP and still banned from here, I tried to just gain access to the TWP embassy and nothing else.


 

At the time, that request was denied. I still favor allowing a dignitary access to their home ‘soil’ on a forum but I would not support a lift of Milo’s overall ban at all. Milograd, while a nice person, committed crimes against the Coalition. He did so and has since apologized. That does not mean that he is not accountable for his actions.


 

Holding him accountable doesn’t mean that TSP is mean and unable to let bygones be bygones. We have punishments to deter people from taking actions against the region. If we allow Milograd back on the boards then we will be saying that a coup is worth a 6-12 month ban. In my opinion, it should be longer than that.

[Unibot]

And this is exactly the problem, we do not have any common understanding of how long the punishment for treason should last. Those who have a political interest in continuing to divide TSP and Lazarus on the "Milograd" issue could be talking three years from now about Milograd as if it happened yesterday (I've already heard enough about "Sedge" this week to prove that). 

 

I think something constructive could for TSP to come up with a minimum punishment level to apply to all formerly convicted of treason ex post facto (who weren't already pardoned) and future convicts. Justices could apply harsher sentences at their discretion in the future. 

[tsunamy]

And this is exactly the problem, we do not have any common understanding of how long the punishment for treason should last. Those who have a political interest in continuing to divide TSP and Lazarus on the "Milograd" issue could be talking three years from now about Milograd as if it happened yesterday (I've already heard enough about "Sedge" this week to prove that).

 

Yes we do have a common understanding of the punishment for treason -- forever. Until certain members started being lackeys for Milo, this was a non-issue.

[Sandaoguo]

Yes we do have a common understanding of the punishment for treason -- forever. Until certain members started being lackeys for Milo, this was a non-issue.

 

I don't think it's really that simple. I find the situation we're in really confusing, to be honest. His punishment is supposed to be banishment from the region, because we're supposed to be shunning people who commit GCR coups. But we all talk to Milograd. We all joke and laugh and think he's not a super terrible person. We don't follow through with shunning him, but we maintain the position that a lifetime ban from the region is part of his punishment. To me, we should just recognize the fait accompli we're presented with -- that Milograd isn't being shunned and that the controversy is temporal and over.

[Kris Kringle]

Now hold on tsu. Nobody here is being a lackey for Milograd. This, as unpopular as it might be, is a legitimate issue that has been accordingly debated. It doesn't mean anybody is being a lackey for Milograd or anything of that sort.

[QuietDad]

Forever means different things to different people. Punk Daddy just came back to TSP and there was a time where he was unwelcomed forever, too. SOmething will happen that will surpass Milo in treason and we'll all move on.