The South Pacific - moving on from the past.

[Belschaft]

PD was banned administratively - Milo was convicted judicially.


These are not the same thing.

[Escade]

There are people who still feel hold strong feelings against Milograd and there are people who no longer do. This is understandable. We are all different. 

 

I understand that from one perspective the desire is to show everyone in the community that destructive behavior will be punished and shamed. Which makes sense. He did betray trust, support, friendship.  He took a game that many people have invested great amounts of time and effort into and broke the rules.

 

Another perspective is that he made a huge and terrible mistake but perhaps some people just miss him and focus on other things.  Neither perspective is valid or invalid. 

[Rebel-topia]

...But we all talk to Milograd. We all joke and laugh and think he's not a super terrible person. ...

 

 

I havent spoken to Milo. I avoid the IRC when hes there, even going as far as leaving when he enters. I think hes a "super terrible person", and want nothing to do with him, even in some official capacity form some other region.

 

The only way I ever see him back in TSP is YEARS from now, when there are only 2 or 3 of those of us here now around.

[Sandaoguo]

The only way I ever see him back in TSP is YEARS from now, when there are only 2 or 3 of those of us here now around.

 

 

Somehow, I suspect even "YEARS" from now, you'll still be saying the same stuff. 

[Rebel-topia]

I will. But a majority of the region wont even know what Milograd did, let alone who he is.

 

He betrayed us, and if he thinks a simple "Im sorry" is going to make everything all better, he's fooling himself (and anyone who actually believes him)

[tsunamy]

 

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="tsunamy" data-cid="114165" data-time="1389829459">
<div>
Yes we do have a common understanding of the punishment for treason -- forever. Until certain members started being lackeys for Milo, this was a non-issue.

 

I don't think it's really that simple. I find the situation we're in really confusing, to be honest. His punishment is supposed to be banishment from the region, because we're supposed to be shunning people who commit GCR coups. But we all talk to Milograd. We all joke and laugh and think he's not a super terrible person. We don't follow through with shunning him, but we maintain the position that a lifetime ban from the region is part of his punishment. To me, we should just recognize the fait accompli we're presented with -- that Milograd isn't being shunned and that the controversy is temporal and over.

 

</div>
</blockquote>
 

No. It's not about whether or not we all ignore the guy. It's about whether or not he is allowed to have a say in the way TSP is run. He should not get to be back here. He should not get to assert his opinions. He doesn't get to vote or direct TSP policy in any way shape or form.

 

I'm not aggressive toward him when we are both in IRC. But I'll be damned if I'm going to support this roll over being advocated.

 

Now hold on tsu. Nobody here is being a lackey for Milograd. This, as unpopular as it might be, is a legitimate issue that has been accordingly debated. It doesn't mean anybody is being a lackey for Milograd or anything of that sort.

 

With all due respect Kris, how you would characterize an argument that all of Milo's offenses be forgiven?

 

I'm getting really tired of the platform people are given to trash the region. We have laws that were debated and voted on. We have a government with a process of doing things. We don't just decide because Milo is "a really nice guy" we're going to alter the system.

 

AND MOREOVER -- this whole thread is little than more an excuse to bash the "old regime" who -- the argument has been -- are using Milo as a whipping boy to divide the region. This is patently untrue and I'm sorry if an honest statement on those who claim otherwise is offensive.

 

Forever means different things to different people. Punk Daddy just came back to TSP and there was a time where he was unwelcomed forever, too. SOmething will happen that will surpass Milo in treason and we'll all move on.

 

QD -- frankly, Fudgie was still set against PunkD being allowed back in the region. This isn't a "everything will blow over." This is a violation of trust. The only hope should be that there will be enough turnover in the region that one day people won't remember what happened. We can't suggest that people get over it.

[Hileville]

I think I should note that I don't believe Raven's intent was to bash older members of the region. However, like many other threads that is the point at which we have arrived at.

[Kris Kringle]

Like Hileville, I don't see this thread as indenting to create an old vs new divide or accusing old members of using Milograd for certain dark motives. That was just some people taking advantage of this thread. Let's not mistake that. And no tsu, I still don't think this is being Milo's lackey. People might disagree with the whole idea, but just because it was proposed doesn't mean that Raven is being a lackey or somehow following Milo's orders. That's just not true, and not a good thing to say.

[QuietDad]

 

 

QD -- frankly, Fudgie was still set against PunkD being allowed back in the region. This isn't a "everything will blow over." This is a violation of trust. The only hope should be that there will be enough turnover in the region that one day people won't remember what happened. We can't suggest that people get over it.

 

In both cases (Milo and Punk Daddy), I feel that the issues with each will never totally blow over for everyone in the region, and justifiably so. The debate here, no matter what anyone thinks, is kind of moot. Punk Daddy is back as a citizen, and regardless of punishments rendered, Milograd is back on IRC. The real issue is that at one time, by either administrative punishment or court sentence, they were both banned forever, yet the remain.

[Penguin]

This might be a silly question but out side of the fact that "we should forgive" and "he's a nice guy" WHY should we let him back?  I haven't seen a single reason (and maybe i missed it in the deluge of nonsense that has nothing to do with this thread) to let him come back. Milo ruined his chances of EVER getting another chance when he did what he did. Why should we change OUR laws and his punishment because he said he was sorry? Why take a chance on a person who has had enough of them? He has done that a time or two and still he is being punished for a crime HE committed. MAYBE in a future where, as Rebel stated, there aren't a lot of those who know around, that punishment may be lifted. But right now, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime. 

[Sandaoguo]

He has done that a time or two and still he is being punished for a crime HE committed. MAYBE in a future where, as Rebel stated, there aren't a lot of those who know around, that punishment may be lifted. But right now, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime. 

 

You bring up the problem that the Code of Laws does not state that somebody who commits treason is banned forever. The ban is "indefinite," which means he can be lifted at any time (though by whom is another question the Code of Laws doesn't seem to answer). I think you're asking the wrong question. The real question here is: Why is it okay to lift his ban down the road, but not now? To me, it seems that RT and others (to varying degree) are relying on personal animus, rather than law. I don't think that's how the law should be handled, but then again there's no real guidance for how long a treason ban lasts, so personal animus is just as legally valid a reason as any other.

 

The real divide here is between people who hate and don't hate Milograd. For me, our criminal and penal code shouldn't be based upon personal feelings. Perhaps we need to create a better sense of how long treason bans last, and who gets to determine when enough time has passed.

[Southern Bellz]

Once again you make sweeping generalizations about people that disagree with you. Why do you continue to use such a divisive tactic to debate.


I don't hate Milograd, yet I don't think he should be unbanned.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

[Drugged Monkeys]

He committed an act of treason by Couping the region and ejecting hundreds upon hundreds of nations, it hasn't even been a year since it has occurred. I cannot believe that we are even discussing the idea of allowing him back in any capacity at this time. I'm shocked that we are waisting our time and words on this obsurd idea.


I myself was the main person behind lobbying for PD to be allowed to return to the region, I was an unbiased person and I believe that is what made the whole thing work as well as it did. Sometime down the line somebody can do the same for Milo, to my great disgust based on how I feel at this moment. But even discussing it now is just a waist of everyone's times and makes this thread just another one in a long list of threads that turn into arguments of the most ridiculous things when we could all be working together to further the region. Instead here we are, yet again..

[Cormac]

 


The real divide here is between people who hate and don't hate Milograd. For me, our criminal and penal code shouldn't be based upon personal feelings. Perhaps we need to create a better sense of how long treason bans last, and who gets to determine when enough time has passed.

 

I don't even dislike Milograd, let alone hate him, and yet I don't think nine months is enough time. He overthrew the region's government and committed treason. TSP is still feeling the effects of that and hasn't healed from it. It created a culture of distrust and that distrust is only going to be aggravated by having its source back in the region as a citizen, possibly even as a diplomat (though I'm more open to giving him access only to Lazarus' embassy). The community he injured needs to heal before we should even be considering giving him a second chance.

 

Given that you've seen fit to attack those who disagree with you by dismissing their views as personal hatred, let me throw this out there: You took the exactly opposite approach to Biyah, Dalimbar, and Neo Kervoskia in Osiris in December 2012. What's the difference here, besides Milograd handing you and your defender buddies a GCR, and why in the world do you think we should give him access to TSP as a reward for the good work he's done for defenders?

[Rebel-topia]

Article 7: Penal Code

1. If found guilty of an act of treason, the offending nation will be immediately banned from the in-game region and offsite forums forever
   .
   
2. If found guilty of defamation, the offending nation must issue a public apology to the nation in which the offense was committed against. Further punishment may be determined by the Judiciary.
   
3. If found guilty of fraud, the Judiciary will determine a sentence. The sentence must be proportionate to the offense.
   
4. If found guilty of espionage, the offending nation may be banned from the in-game region and expelled from the offsite forums. The Judiciary may determine a lesser sentence in order to keep proportionality with the offense.
   
5. Conduct violations are punishable by immediate ejection and banishment from the region, albeit punished parties may appeal this decision to the court. In most cases, nations that appeal the decision and apologize should expect to have their ban lifted.
   

Savvy?

[LadyElysium]

Does there exist a good summary/history of the coup itself, for those of us who've only heard very partial accounts? Some of what I've seen doesn't make me unsympathetic towards Milograd, but I recognise that I've only really heard one particular version of the events, and for a discussion like this it's probably helpful to know what actually happened (much as Raven desires to move past those happenings).

 

Edit: toning down

 

So, not to take a really random left turn...but I'd also like to know if this exists anywhere? As someone who came to town well after all of these events, it makes it heard to chime in on the conversation, if we don't all have the right information for the discussion. Was there ever a thread that I can't find that has a decent synopsis/history that is impartial?

[Kris Kringle]

This isn't a single post where you will find the whole story. It's mostly spread out in different forums and different posts and threads.

[Unibot]

 

Given that you've seen fit to attack those who disagree with you by dismissing their views as personal hatred, let me throw this out there: You took the exactly opposite approach to Biyah, Dalimbar, and Neo Kervoskia in Osiris in December 2012. What's the difference here, besides Milograd handing you and your defender buddies a GCR, and why in the world do you think we should give him access to TSP as a reward for the good work he's done for defenders?

 

 

Nice jab - accusing G-R of "rewarding" Milograd for shifting Lazarus to being a defender region. 

 

The difference between the two contexts is: Biyah, Dalimbar and NK wielded a lot of power in Osiris -- detrimental, in fact, to that region. The period after their coup was really the only opportunity to legally compel them to leave the region (and do so with full international support). 

 

Milograd won't come back to TSP with a lot of power and he never wielded their systemic institutional power in The South Pacific which The Empire had. I doubt Milograd would be able to get elected (or even try) for any position here for two years, maybe three.  

[TheGrimReaper]

 

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Vibrant Coconuts" data-cid="113565" data-time="1389414934">
<div>
Does there exist a good summary/history of the coup itself, for those of us who've only heard very partial accounts? Some of what I've seen doesn't make me unsympathetic towards Milograd, but I recognise that I've only really heard one particular version of the events, and for a discussion like this it's probably helpful to know what actually happened (much as Raven desires to move past those happenings).

 

Edit: toning down

 

So, not to take a really random left turn...but I'd also like to know if this exists anywhere? As someone who came to town well after all of these events, it makes it heard to chime in on the conversation, if we don't all have the right information for the discussion. Was there ever a thread that I can't find that has a decent synopsis/history that is impartial?

 

</div>
</blockquote>
 

 

You won't find an impartial synopsis anywhere, not yet. If people are interested, I could try and at least put together a compilation of primary sources, though - I don't have access to any of the sekrit cabinet files (but neither would my audience, anyway) but there is a myriad of publication from both sides of the coup on the main forums.

[Belschaft]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="LadyElysium" data-cid="114299" data-time="1389928176">

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Vibrant Coconuts" data-cid="113565" data-time="1389414934">

Does there exist a good summary/history of the coup itself, for those of us who've only heard very partial accounts? Some of what I've seen doesn't make me unsympathetic towards Milograd, but I recognise that I've only really heard one particular version of the events, and for a discussion like this it's probably helpful to know what actually happened (much as Raven desires to move past those happenings).

Edit: toning down

So, not to take a really random left turn...but I'd also like to know if this exists anywhere? As someone who came to town well after all of these events, it makes it heard to chime in on the conversation, if we don't all have the right information for the discussion. Was there ever a thread that I can't find that has a decent synopsis/history that is impartial?
</blockquote>



You won't find an impartial synopsis anywhere, not yet. If people are interested, I could try and at least put together a compilation of primary sources, though - I don't have access to any of the sekrit cabinet files (but neither would my audience, anyway) but there is a myriad of publication from both sides of the coup on the main forums.</blockquote>
The publications of Milograd and his side of the coup are beyond useless.


I'm not aware of there being a synopsis anywhere, but our own records are relatively complete and accurate.

[Sandaoguo]

Once again you make sweeping generalizations about people that disagree with you. Why do you continue to use such a divisive tactic to debate.

It would make the forum an "uncomfortable environment" with him here. It's "disgusting" to even talk about lifting the ban. He's a terrible person.


Those are all statements made by you guys about this. It's not divisive to say that the primary motivation for opposing lifting Milograd's ban is a personal animus towards him. That's the only reasonable conclusion to draw. If the only thing that could happen to make lifting his ban okay, is if enough time passes for you guys to leave the region, then that means the only thing keeping his punishment relevant is that there's a personal dislike or hatred of the guy. Offer up a non-emotional basis for when his ban should be lifted, I won't think that this is all driven by emotion.

 

Given that you've seen fit to attack those who disagree with you by dismissing their views as personal hatred, let me throw this out there: You took the exactly opposite approach to Biyah, Dalimbar, and Neo Kervoskia in Osiris in December 2012. What's the difference here, besides Milograd handing you and your defender buddies a GCR, and why in the world do you think we should give him access to TSP as a reward for the good work he's done for defenders?

 

Please with the conspiracy theories, Cormac. I've been saying for months now that Milograd's actions were idiosyncratic as far as coups go. I argued when he first became delegate of Lazarus that TSP shouldn't let that prevent good relations, because I argued Milograd had fulfilled his sentences (both the one TSP handed down and the NPO's). Let's not forget that, here. TSP handed down a sentence and Milograd completed it. Yet we still punish him to the fullest extent possible, largely because the group of players who lost the most at the time have an intense emotional reaction whenever his name is brought up. When I said that we're split between people who hate and don't hate Milograd, I'm saying that there's a group of us who don't have this super emotional connection to those events. We're a step removed from them, so I believe our heads are more sober when talking about how long his ban should go on.

[Belschaft]

The singular reason why Milograd is not welcome is that he is a convicted criminal guilty of treason.


Anyone who suggests otherwise is full of shit.

[Kris Kringle]

Now everyone seriously needs to calm down and think about where this discussion is going. Belschaft, it does no good to your argument to accuse people who oppose it of being "full of shit". You could easily make a very reasonable case without that, please make it so.

Seriously guys. Is it that hard to get along? I can't imagine why is it so difficult lately to have reasonable debates without accusing each other of plotting or calling names. You all know better than that. I'm really disappointed at how this is going.

[Belschaft]

TSP handed down a sentence and Milograd completed it. Yet we still punish him to the fullest extent possible

Let's be quite clear here - in what way exactly has Milograd 'completed' his sentence? How exactly can a sentence of banishment be 'completed'?


As for the rest of your enlightened post where you explained how those of us who object to treason are just being emotional.... You are so totally full of crap it is actually getting tedious.


....


I honestly did not think it would be possible for someone to be worse than Unibot.


Boy was I wrong.

[Sandaoguo]

Let's be quite clear here - in what way exactly has Milograd 'completed' his sentence? How exactly can a sentence of banishment be 'completed'?

 

Milograd's sentence was a public apology and an indefinite ban from the region. He completed his public apology. It's up to TSP to determine when to lift his ban.