Changes in Vice Delegate Elections

[Belschaft]

Firmly against limiting elections so that two new people like Escade and Kris can't run together and play with "master's" toys.

This post makes no sense at all... also, what is with referring to yourself in the third person?

[Unibot]

I believe she's arguing that breaking up the elections is to give the old guard more of a chance to get elected - because they can get elected individually as opposed to having being weighted down by a partner. 

 

Honestly, why else is this being proposed? I mean, hell, even SB brought up the example of HEM being too slow to post his campaign thread as his Vice Delegate choice. 

[Southern Bellz]

I believe she's arguing that breaking up the elections is to give the old guard more of a chance to get elected - because they can get elected individually as opposed to having being weighted down by a partner. 

 

Honestly, why else is this being proposed? I mean, hell, even SB brought up the example of HEM being too slow to post his campaign thread as his Vice Delegate choice. 

 

Wow unibot, you cracked the case.

[Unibot]

Minister of Justice. Three terms.

 

Case solved. Court adjourned. 

[Geomania]

Another argument in favor of keeping the ticket structure as is: hypothetically, if the Delegate and VD have opposing viewpoints and the Delegate steps down, the policy of the region could be radically altered with the blink of an eye. For the sake of continuity, the person that is one heartbeat from the Delegate seat should be in sync with the Delegate.

[tsunamy]

I believe she's arguing that breaking up the elections is to give the old guard more of a chance to get elected - because they can get elected individually as opposed to having being weighted down by a partner. 

 

Honestly, why else is this being proposed? I mean, hell, even SB brought up the example of HEM being too slow to post his campaign thread as his Vice Delegate choice. 

 

Again -- I'd like to suggest the argument that breaking up the ticket might actually give newer members a better chance to get elected.

[Drugged Monkeys]

Another argument in favor of keeping the ticket structure as is: hypothetically, if the Delegate and VD have opposing viewpoints and the Delegate steps down, the policy of the region could be radically altered with the blink of an eye. For the sake of continuity, the person that is one heartbeat from the Delegate seat should be in sync with the Delegate.

This makes no sense to me. The people of the region elect cabinet members, it's up to them.


And I agree with Tsunamy as well that splitting the ticket would give people a better shot at winning, "New" or "Old guard".

Because hypothetically, according to the people who speak of "The Old Guard" if two of these people ran on the same ticket, it would essentially make them an unbeatable team with all of their extensive backing and support from years of being in TSP right?! HA!

[Hileville]

I believe she's arguing that breaking up the elections is to give the old guard more of a chance to get elected - because they can get elected individually as opposed to having being weighted down by a partner. 

 

Honestly, why else is this being proposed? I mean, hell, even SB brought up the example of HEM being too slow to post his campaign thread as his Vice Delegate choice. 

I'm so happy to see the "old guard" "oligarch" nonsense back in TSP.  Makes it much more exciting to be here.

 

Go play around with a region you actually care about Unibot.

[Southern Bellz]

I'm tired of the old guard comments. if you guys dont want me to have political power, stop voting for me. Its insulting to imply that I need to result to under handed tricks to try to get things done around here.


I was just making a suggestion that I think will improve elections in this region for everyone, and I will not stand for my motives being attacked.


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[Escade]

I would prefer that no one's motives be attacked, also Rebel feel free to begin the trial of strict moderation. 

[Kris Kringle]

I honestly don't believe SB had any dark motive for presenting this proposal. This is just something some of us happen to disagree with. It would be nice to keep it civil, and please keep the oligarchy talk out of this.

I still advocate the Delegate and Vice Delegate being elected together, for the simple fact that their respective duties make them a team. I as Vice Delegate don't have my own agenda and duties to discharge (except approving citizenship apps), so my primary duty is to help and advice the Delegate. It's different to argue that Ministers are elected separately, because each one has different duties, thus different agendas. Besides, that's where the idea of a Cabinet and coordination within it comes to mind.

My point is, the Vice Delegate isn't here to execute an agenda of his own. He's here to help the Delegate and the Cabinet execute the agreed agenda. It would make no sense to make them campaign under an agenda that isn't under their primary control. I think someone suggested making a thread where candidates encouraged people to be their running mates if they needed one, and that is a good idea that we should consider.

[Jared Howell]

This might work for example if we expanded the current system.  

 

For example, delegates and vice-delegates could still run together. However, the election for each would be separate. That way if there was  a candidate running who the delegate would feel they could work well with then they could endorse them and work together.

 

Perhaps we might even have both, you either run as a ticket or you run on your own and the elections reflect that. 

 

I was going to write a post, but it would have said the middle sentence above. Probably in more words. I think overall the system should be flexible, allow like-minded candidates to find each other but also increase opportunities.

[Rebel-topia]

Again, I think a creation of separate Delegate & VD elections would do more harm than good.

 

Like I said before, If I was asked by someone I think would be a good delegate, Id have been their VD mate... I still think the best option is to allow a communal hall prior to elections where delegate and VD-hopefuls can meet & greet with each other, as to find their best running mate. Even if one wasnt thinking about it, Seeing someone they think would be good, but lacking a running mate, could persuade them to join a ticket

[TheGrimReaper]

I think that a good compromise would definitely be Rebeltopia's opinion - it addresses some of the pitfalls apparent in the joint-ticket problem, while avoiding most of (or at least tempering) those present in the split-ticket problem.

 

For clarification, I'm referring to his proposal that we have a formal forum or route for discussion for VD and Delegate hopefuls prior to nominations, so that people can put up developmental campaigns, get-to-know-mes, AMAs, and the like, and formulate a formal ticket or even a set of endorsements.

 

It would also help create more detailed and in-depth campaign threads, I think, if people have a formal way to develop their platforms in the public (or semi-public eye, with their potential political opponents and allies being able to respond to and assist in platforms).

 

I would further suggest (I don't know how difficult masking would be) that this forum be closed to the current cabinet and to nominees, and then opened to the public once the nominations begin, with the addendum that I think that would only be a minor change, the exclusion of which wouldn't preclude me from supporting this idea 100%.

[Cormac]

I'm sorry if this topic has basically ended, but I didn't really get to it before and wanted to offer a suggestion.

 

First, I agree that the Delegate should choose the Vice Delegate. Those arguing that a Delegate and Vice Delegate could coup together aren't wrong, but I think in most cases a Delegate is going to have a hard time sneaking through a Vice Delegate who would coup with them and I don't think there are that many TSPers willing to coup the region to begin with. Splitting the ticket also wouldn't really prevent this, though I acknowledge it might reduce the likelihood, as the two could just endorse each other and both could win the election. And we shouldn't forget the flipside of this: A Vice Delegate who doesn't get along with a Delegate would be well positioned to coup. In general, I don't think coup considerations should factor in here. There are a million hypothetical scenarios we could ponder and a million ways someone might coup, some more plausible than others, and the reason we have the CSS and other security precautions is to deal with those scenarios.

 

What I'm proposing addresses the other concern, that someone might not be able to run for Delegate because they can't find a running mate. Why don't we allow someone to run either with a running mate or alone, and if a person who has run alone is elected Delegate they can nominate someone to the Vice Delegacy to be confirmed by the Assembly? Essentially that's already what happens. Citizens vote for a Delegate and in doing so essentially vote to confirm their choice of Vice Delegate. That's not substantially any different than the Assembly, comprised of all citizens, confirming a Vice Delegate after a Delegate has already been elected.

[Rebel-topia]

I think, the way TSP has been working since April, has been great. Other than once or twice, I have heard nothing about the difficulty finding a runningmate. And definitely not stated publicly before, during, or after the elections - it only came out after that person(s) spoke to someone else (my assumption is much after elections), and that person brought it up here.

 

If people are having trouble with something, they should speak up. And if someone comes to you asking for help, speak up for them. You dont have to use names, just say "someone came to me asking that xyz be looked into, cause they were having trouble with it"... I cant promise there'll be change, but I can promise a discussion. (We in TSP are very good at discussions  )

[Southern Bellz]

I think a complaint like that once or twice is a fairly big deal considering we have only used that election system a few times.


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[Kris Kringle]

But there is already a proposal to let candidates look for running mates. If we do that and then also give them an appropriate time to campaign, that would solve the problem. Like I said, a separate Vice Delegate election wouldn't do good because the Vice Delegate doesn't have an agenda of his own do campaign on.

[Rebel-topia]

Lets take baby steps, here. No use over complicating something that can be fixed with a simple fix. If the simple fixes dont work, then step it up.

 

Article 1: Elections

1. Elections for all Cabinet positions and the Chief Justice shall commence on the first of every April, August, and December.
   
2. All normal and special elections will be comprised of a nomination period lasting five days and a voting period lasting three days.
   
3. Runoff elections will begin within twenty-four hours of the initial vote closing and consist of a voting period lasting three days.
   
4. Candidates for elections may self-declare or be nominated by another Citizen.  Candidates must file a Conflict of Interest Disclosure at the time of their acceptance of a nomination or self-declaration.
   
5. Conflict of Interest Disclosures must include current World Assembly Nation, all past and present aliases used, all past and present involvement in other regions and organizations, and all current positions held across NationStates.
   
6. The Delegate and Vice Delegate will run on a joint ticket and be elected by a majority vote.  If no ticket receives a majority vote a runoff election with the two tickets receiving the most votes will occur.
   <li>A thread for communicating desire for a runningmate for Delegate and Vice Delegate hopefuls will be open one week prior to the thread for nominations.
   
   
   • This thread will ONLY be used for this purpose. Any campaigning will be removed by the Election Commissioner(s).
     
     
   </li>
   
7. All other elected offices will be voted on separately and be elected by a plurality vote.
   
8. In all elections an option to re-open nominations will be included.  If this option receives the most votes the nomination period for that office will be restarted.
   
9. In the event that no candidate runs for an available office the newly elected Cabinet will appoint a Citizen to fill the vacancy.
   
10. Vacancies in office occur when the office holder resigns, is recalled, or no longer holds citizenship.  In the event of a vacancy in office a special election will begin within 72 hours of the office becoming vacant, unless the vacancy occurs in the month prior to the start of an election cycle; in this case the Cabinet will appoint a Citizen to fill the vacated position for the remainder of the term.
    
11. Elections will be run by a member of the forum administration staff or their designee.  A designated Election Commissioner may be appointed if all members of the administration staff will be candidates in the given election.
    

[Escade]

I like the change, it allows for requests for a running mate without breaking the no campaigning rule. 

 

I know several people also PMed or TGed about being or needing a running mate the last two or three elections so perhaps a public reminder that elections will be coming up (lets say a week before the nomination and then again before the campaigning begins) over the RMB\froums\mass TG might also be helpful.

[Southern Bellz]

I don't think that is a solution. I'll detail why later.


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[Cormac]

I agree with Southern Bellz; it's not a solution. They still may not be able to find a running mate, and I don't think we should exclude qualified candidates for Delegate just because they don't have a running mate for Vice Delegate.

 

If we allow a Delegate candidate to either run with a running mate for Vice Delegate or nominate a Vice Delegate for confirmation after election, that would provide the kind of flexibility we need while still retaining the ability of the Delegate to pick their Vice Delegate and citizen oversight over that choice. I think that's probably the most reasonable solution since the community is divided on whether or not to split the ticket.

[Southern Bellz]

I have to respectfully disagree with Rebeltopia on his assessment that our last election for delegate was a resounding success, and his proposed edit to address the issue.

 

Last election our delegate ran unopposed, and I do not think it was because of a lack of interest, I think it is because requring a running mate is too high of a barrier to run for delegate.  At least three members of this body have seen cases where people were looking for running mates and failed.

 

I recognize Kris's concern with having a Del and VD with different agendas, and therefore believe that the best solution is to ONLY hold delegate elections.  THEN have the delegate nominate a vice delegate, subject to assembly confirmation.  I think this would both address the issues with the running mate requirement, and ensure that our VD is in agreement with the delegate's platform.  I think it also expands the potential pool of vice delegate to people that may have had a similar platform as the delegate, but lost the election.

[QuietDad]

How about the just the Delegate runs. Once elected, the Delegate can decide on a VD, whether to appoint one, run a classified ad to see who applies or even hold a special election.

[Escade]

I'm not sure about just a Delegate running.  I don't know how I feel about an assembly having to approve of a vice-delegate.  The fact is that the delegate is already highly curtailed in terms of powers\responsibilities so if they can't select their running mate then what can they do?  


Their cabinet is already elected by citizens, the delegate should have some power to choose the person who will work closely with them. 

 

I work closely with Kris, consulting him for everything because he's better at certain aspects then I am. I don't know who else I have that kind of working relationship with where we can try things out or discuss ideas and balance each other out. 

 

SB, I'm not sure what went down this election. However, personally I have been solicited for vice delegate or delegate positions for the past two elections. Some by people who were serious but I wasn't ready at the time and sometimes by people who I just had no working relationship with so I didn't feel comfortable with aligning our visions. There were also some random requests from people I never saw on the RMB or forums.

 

If the idea is that a delegate run on their own, have the option of choosing a vice delegate the only hurdle I see is that voters may not like the candidate or the assembly may not approve and they will be without a partner to work with until a certain period which can be a setback.

 

At least as delegate I feel that Kris is my partner in all things and without him I would be lost. 

 

The problem with a delegate just randomly choosing a candidate is that the VD heads CSS. 


I'm sure there is a compromise that could keep everyone working. 

 

Perhaps a candidate can advertise for vice delegate positions two weeks before the campaign starts.  Actually, people have done this so I'm not sure what the major hurdle is to finding someone to run on a ticket with.  In fact, someone might start looking now if they are interested in the April elections. As long as they aren't campaigning, it might be a good way to develop a working relationship.  

 

From my perspective being able to find a running mate is less of an issue because you can start planning now.