Osiris couped by Invaders

[Sandaoguo]

Tell me more about how I am in the wrong GR. I love hearing it.

 

You don't have to support either unconstitutional regimes. I've noticed a pattern, though, that you have this really optimistic (really, naive) view about coups in Osiris. Not a single coup has ever brought about stability and prosperity in the region, yet for the last two or three, a lot of people in Osiris have, for some strange reason, thought that the coup at the time was going to do so! Osiris never learns.

[Awesomiasa]

The incoming Cabinet hasn't came up with a concrete discussion on this yet, but imo, I'd say that if the Osirian people support such a form of government, even if this means another Krull-like GCR, then let it be. I think we can condemn it, but wouldn't support military intervention to restore it to a state of democracy. Let's not impose our standards or ideals of democracy on others.

 

EDIT: At this point in time (before the Cabinet has a formal discussion), I'm taking a wait-and-see approach. If anyone has any statements or information from prominent Osirians or the current (or former) government that you'd like the Cabinet to perhaps take a look at, do link to them below. Thanks.

[Southern Bellz]

My biggest issue with this is that if this new government were to exist 'as is' it creates a very dangerous standard for an occupied GCR becoming an acceptable status-quo.

 

However, I do not really see anyone being vocal in support of the empire opposition (and the fact that the Empire is not really a native Osiris organization), so this seems to be a very complex situation.

[Rebel-topia]

I, too, have the same fear that this will lead to occupations of GCRs being "ok"... Lets hope against that theory, though.

[StGeorgie]

Occupied GCRs are already standard procedure. The Imperialists have Balder. The FRA have TRR and now Lazarus. Hell, even that most famous of feeder leaders Franco Spain came from a UCR.

[Belschaft]

None of those regions are formal 'protectorates' of a UCR group though; they just have a predominant native group of that alignment. Balder isn't a colony of TNI or LKE, it simply has a lot of IndImp players there.

[Cassius]

The Imperialists have Balder.

 

That's a rather callous claim. I suspect Rachael would dispute that statement a bit. Though many Imperialist regions are allied with Balder, Balder is independent.

[StGeorgie]

Please. Let's not pretend that Balder isn't imp. I was there when Balder developed, I was there when Cere won the delegacy election and took Balder in that direction. He was right to do so, and Rachel has been right to continue it, but let's not pretend that isn't in that sphere.

[Cassius]

Cere is barely even active there anymore. It may be a part of this "sphere" as you call it, but your statement that "Imperialists have Balder" is misleading. We don't have them. Any direction they take is of their own accord. This is a rather old debate though, so I won't argue the point any further.

[Sandaoguo]

I don't know why we're talking about Balder.

 

Anyways, I just wanted to state before I leave for the holidays that the situation in Osiris is absolutely unacceptable. Contrary to what some think, it is not a domestic matter. Osiris is basically a colony of the Brotherhood of Malice. You have to swear a loyalty oath to them in order to become a citizen of their new Osiris. What Venico did is no different than what Douria did. The only difference is that Venico framed his actions as fighting against defenders, so parts of the gameplay community, hypocritical as always, welcomed the new unconstitutional regime with open arms. The Empire is not a group of defenders. It is a group of untrustworthy players who like to coup regions, and have threatened to coup Osiris when they didn't get their way. Venico & Friends are not Osiris' saviors, either. They are power-hungry classical imperialists who just want to control Osiris. Welcome to the new coup, same as the old coup.

 

I'll have a more detailed statement later today or tomorrow. I just wanted to make sure now that my basic thoughts on this are publicly known.

[Unibot]

Basically right on every regard, Glen. I just think from a FA-standpoint, TSP has a lot to lose here getting involved on either side -- at most, we could come out saying that what we said about Osi a couple of months ago essentially still applies to the new state (that's its just as illegitimate and just as unstable - and we'd like to see better before we get involved diplomatically with Osi in the future).


The latter helps us keep some consistency here, not side with either side, leaves the door open for us to support a third side if it ever appears and it doesn't put us totally at odds with TNI/Balder/Europeia who have come out on the side of wildly Anti-Empire, Pro-Venico -- which is hilarious given TNI's past history with the real Empire. But I digress.

[Hileville]

The Cabinet will likely release a statement later today.  We are discussing wording and a proposed draft.

[Belschaft]

I am, shockingly, in agreement with Glen and Unibot in regards to this issue.

[Sierra Lobo]

This is an intra-regional spat. Let them resolve this by themselves. Couping Osiris is a hobby and a extremely fun fast pace drama series in NS. Taking a position now would be bad for TSP for future foreign relations.

 

Do we even know who could be considered as the "legitimate government"?

[Horse]

*looks at Uni's and above post*
All of that.
All of that is beautiful.

[Rebel-topia]

Basically right on every regard, Glen. I just think from a FA-standpoint, TSP has a lot to lose here getting involved on either side -- at most, we could come out saying that what we said about Osi a couple of months ago essentially still applies to the new state (that's its just as illegitimate and just as unstable - and we'd like to see better before we get involved diplomatically with Osi in the future).


The latter helps us keep some consistency here, not side with either side, leaves the door open for us to support a third side if it ever appears and it doesn't put us totally at odds with TNI/Balder/Europeia who have come out on the side of wildly Anti-Empire, Pro-Venico -- which is hilarious given TNI's past history with the real Empire. But I digress. :P

**cries**

That was beautiful!!


In seriousness here... I don't think negative words will provide positive results. I don't think it's in our best interest to choose sides. Let's just wait a month or so, see it out and where it goes.

[Belschaft]

I think the Cabinet statement was broadly speaking correct. Whilst I don't agree that what is going on in Osiris can be characterized as an entirely internal matter, it maintains our long running commitment to constitutional government and avoids entangling ourselves.

[Southern Bellz]

Basically right on every regard, Glen. I just think from a FA-standpoint, TSP has a lot to lose here getting involved on either side -- at most, we could come out saying that what we said about Osi a couple of months ago essentially still applies to the new state (that's its just as illegitimate and just as unstable - and we'd like to see better before we get involved diplomatically with Osi in the future).


The latter helps us keep some consistency here, not side with either side, leaves the door open for us to support a third side if it ever appears and it doesn't put us totally at odds with TNI/Balder/Europeia who have come out on the side of wildly Anti-Empire, Pro-Venico -- which is hilarious given TNI's past history with the real Empire. But I digress. :P

This is why we don't purge people we normally disagree with :p


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[Unibot]

I fear the statement put out by the cabinet is just a bit too positive (if not broad), to be honest.

 

I know what they were going for - something positive that could be interpreted both ways. But it more or less seems to be welcoming the change in Osiris -- when I read the, "We look forward to seeing Osiris rebuild itself in the image that it desires" part, I got the feeling that was the Cabinet giving the thumbs up to the purging of defender-leaning members and the radical, extrajudicial redesign of the region. It's not clear who is Osiris or what Osiris desires -- it's a Civil War and that's part of the problem for us as foreign commentators. 

 

I think we would have been better off simply just echoing our previous statement on Osiris -- not much has really changed from then (when you really think about). The crisis has only escalated. 

[Southern Bellz]

We don't endorse nor condone their actions at this time.


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[Unibot]

I just felt it seemed to be glossing over that fact to remain positive. 

 

The statement's not the huge concern though, the real concern is what TSP's cabinet is actually thinking. Are we mulling over repairing relations with Osiris? To me, it seems way too soon for that and Osiris isn't in any better shape than it was when we closed relations. 

[Kris Kringle]

We have decided that it's no good to further antagonise Osiris at the moment, but we don't need to support them either. We will continue assessing the situation until the formation of an elected and stable government.

[Unibot]

Surely there are other GCRs to consider relations with before Osiris? The lack of any antagonism at all in the statement seems to imply the Cabinet wants to pursue relations sooner rather than later, regardless of what happens to Osiris's legal or political reform so long as our allies and the people in power in Osiris are happy with Osiris -- that to me is unacceptable foreign policy and I hope that I'm being too cynical about the statement's discourse.

 

I'd be disheartened to see TSP do a 180' on its statement in favor of democracy and fair governance from a month ago to join the Euro-sphere's overenthusiastic support of the Brotherhood of Malice in a few weeks from now when the dust has settled enough. That would be unfortunate and pretty much void of anything responsible on our part as global leaders in interregional peace and good governance. 

[Escade]

Uni, the cabinet is discussing the issue. We will wait until Osiris holds the elections they have promised before making any big decisions and will give opportunity for the people of TSP to have their say.

 

I think that a positive and encouraging approach works far better than an antagonistic one. What do we gain by antagonism? Nothing.

 

What do we gain by optimism? The opportunity to be able to discuss with the region and its current power holders and guide them towards stability.

 

My whole campaign platform is based on friendship, cooperation and a fresh start approach.  None of these can be forced, nor should they be.  As I've stated before, there are few lessons we learn well when they are screamed or otherwise bludgeoned into our heads.

[Unibot]

There's no clear lesson to be learnt from the statement, Escade; I've been in NS politics enough to know when a statement is specifically designed to say nothing at all and make me feel good. That's why I want to know what the Cabinet actually thinks about Osiris. 

 

Venico has already said he lied that there were going to be elections. They just admitted to it on the NS forums.

 

I'm worried that this isn't a fresh start at all. It seems to be TSP just trying to keep its opinion as close to TNI/Euro's, regardless of the state of democracy and the rule of law in TSP, under the pretense of feel-good optimism. If that's the case, that's really bad form and speaks of the internal inconsistencies in our diplomatic platform. One week, we're all "democracy", next week we're all "whatever makes Cormac and Venico happy!" -- there is a difference between those positions.