Osiris Coup

[Rebel-topia]

I'm going to have to agree with bel. I don't see how we can support the current affirmation Hong on in Osiris. It's a shame, as they were our closest allies over the last few months...


I think is time we bring to Asta our reasonings for dissolving the current treaty, and stress that, once a formal, constitutional government is formed, we will hold talks about a new treaty.

[Sandaoguo]

Is Bel actually suggesting dissolving the treaty? The Assembly is kind of discussing renegotiating it right now.

[Belschaft]

I'm a pragmatist at heart Glen; my preferred course of action would be to suspend the current treaty with the intent of renegotiating it with whatever regime stabilizes Osiris.

[Kris Kringle]

Osiris, why must you be such a gigantic headache?

forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=17817366#p17817366

[Rebel-topia]

Seems like they're the barely older sibling of a newborn... Throwing a temper tantrum when they see mommy and daddy arent paying any attention to them... Any attention is good attention, right?

[Kris Kringle]

By this point they should include in their constitution a requirement that the Pharaoh coup the region once in their region. It would't make much difference from what is happening now.

[Belschaft]

Heh. I'm waiting on Todd to give me his vote count to compare it to mine before announcing the election results and remasking people, but that shouldn't take too long; this is probably my last post here for a while.

 

One final bit of advice; For the love of all that is holy, stay the hell out of Osiris. Do not comment on it officially, do not send troops in, do not recognize any of them as being the legitimate government or even a government. Wait until the region is stabalized, and they have at least some semblance of of laws to obey and act in accordance of. Nothing good can come of involving TSP.

[Rebel-topia]

 

One final bit of advice; For the love of all that is holy, stay the hell out of Osiris. Do not comment on it officially, do not send troops in, do not recognize any of them as being the legitimate government or even a government. Wait until the region is stabalized, and they have at least some semblance of of laws to obey and act in accordance of. Nothing good can come of involving TSP.

 

 

THIS!!!!

[Escade]

Bel, we need about 110+ endorsements to stop being lame ducks. Until then, Kris and I are going to rely on the current cabinet heavily to help us through this transition.

 

My own approach is to be extremely neutral and take a wait and see approach.

[Belschaft]

Well, I have my count of the vote and you (unofficially) have a fairly decent cabinet to back you up.

 

I have a few suggestions to make regarding the CSS, but I'll wait till the results are final before doing so (via PM).

[Kris Kringle]

Oh don't worry Bel. I don't have the slightest intention of getting involved in Osiris. That is one can of worms I don't want us to open.

[Hileville]

I actually disagree here.  I see this as a good opportunity to begin improving relations.  What we saw here in Osiris was the in-game Delegate get rid of Empire forces that truly were the cause of a lot of the internal strife that the region has faced.  While I don't agree with some of the defender rhetoric being spewed and the UCR "protectorate" stuff I personally support Venico and what he is trying to do.  I suggest and would like to advise both Ven and Raven (Osi MoFA) in private that we support what they are doing.  I also suggest we advocate to them about moving forward with less foreign support.  I think going about this the way we did with the repeal will kill all chances of us having a relationship in the future.  I strongly advocate we have constant private communications with them.

 

I do not think we should touch this militarily but not issuing some sort of statement when almost all of our Allies have already done so is in bad taste.  I think we have a couple options in a statement.  We can formally recognize Venico and his Government as legitimate.  His regime will be around for some time and if we want to have Embassies with them we have to do this anyway as it is required in the application.  The other option would be to be really broad and say that we support the people of Osiris and share with them a desire for a stable Government to be in place and that we hope for peace...

 

I am very strongly against not saying something publicly.

[Awesomiasa]

I'm more of going "We recognize the right of the Osirian people to self-determination and a stable government" then put a diplomacy-clause-for-dipolmacy's-sake sorta thing and say that we will resume bilateral relations if they so wish, or something to that effect.

 

As in that we hold out the olive branch and see if they're willing to grab the other end

[Southern Bellz]

I think we should directly bring up our concerns about the GCR ownership and foreign forces in the region being used as a long time occupying force. We can then respond to Osiris and issue a statement.

If you are concerned about our statement being 'late' you can preface we did our due diligence and spoke with osi.

Our 'statements' shouldn't catch the region they involve off guard.

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[Sandaoguo]

I do not think this is the time to start renewing relations. Venico's administration is still unconstitutional. It is the carry over from Astarial's regime, and TSP's position is still that the post-KRO regimes are illegitimate. "The Empire" is not a very sympathetic group, but they were removed extra-judicially, so Osiris under Venico is just as lawless and chaotic as Osiris under Astarial.

 

I do think we need to say something about this, though. We should reiterate our position on the post-KRO regime, stressing the need for free and democratic elections, and a liberal democratic constitution. We should absolutely under no circumstances support Venico's regime. It is unconstitutional. He violated the fundamental principle of GCR sovereignty, which this Cabinet should see a threat. Additionally, supporting Venico means supporting the product of a coup. It would send the message that GCR coups aren't that serious anymore. That message is also sent if we take Belschaft's advise to stay out. TSP has always opposed coups and has always supported democratic governance. There's no reason for us to stop now.

[Southern Bellz]

We have an opportunity to use diplomacy to get a better result. We should honestly be speaking to Balder, TNI, and Euro as well about our concerns.

We don't have to recognize them, but we can talk and try to influence the situation without force.

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[Sandaoguo]

Balder, Euro, and TNI have already announced their full-throated support of Venico's regime. I don't know what we have to talk about it with them. They won't walk back their support or declare Venico's regime illegitimate. I don't think we'll get any support from our allies on this issue, except from maybe TNP if they decide to make a statement. Sure, let's voice our concerns, but we know what their responses will be.

 

I think a discussion on the use of foreign forces for long-term security is something that we should really push for in the NS World Fair, though. If no then, then through some other high-level multilateral talks.

 

I'm offering this draft statement, in the format of the last one: 

 

Statement on the Osiris Fraternal Order

 

The Cabinet of the Coalition of The South Pacific, recognizing the recent troubling, events in the former Kemetic Republic of Osiris, wishes to express the following:

 

First, we reiterate our statement from 18 September 2013 that we do not recognize any unconstitutional regime following the illegal dissolution of the Kemetic Republic of Osiris.

 

Second, we further reiterate our belief in the right of regional self-determination, but stress that liberal democratic institutions serve in the best interests of all Game-Created Regions. We again emphasize the need for free and democratic elections in Osiris. Following a constitutional referendum and free and democratic elections, encompassing a wide array of Osiris citizens, the Cabinet will reevaluate our recognition of the post-KRO regime.

 

Third, we proclaim the principle of Game-Create Region sovereignty sacrosanct. We condemn Venico, Cormac, and Ambroscus Koth for declaring the region of Osiris to be the protectorate of the Brotherhood of Malice. This is blatant imperialism and is a threat to the stability of all Game-Created Regions.

 

Fourth, we caution our brother and sister Game-Created Regions against relying on the long-term military protection of outside militant groups. This is a massive destabilizing force. We urge Game-Created Regions to reach a consensus on protecting themselves against internal and external threats. We hope this matter is fruitfully discussed at the 2013 NationStates World Fair.

 

Fifth, we further reiterate our opposition to any military intervention that threatens the independence of the region of Osiris. We oppose military movements designed to support any unconstitutional regime in the region. We strongly urge all groups to seek the advice and consent of the Game-Created Region community before engaging in any actions.

 

Sixth, we strongly recommend that people refrain from granting access to their high-influence nations to third parties. Nation-sharing has proven to be a huge security risk. All regions should discuss proper ways to prevent their regional security from being exploited by those who exercise bad judgment in to whom they grant access to their nations. 

[Hileville]

I have a lot of issues with this statement that I will discuss when I get home. I will sau that the KRO no longer exists and never will again. Continuing to grasp on to that regime is not good foreign policy.

[Southern Bellz]

I agree with a lot of your points but I think sweeping statements without engagement is very dangerous in this case.

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[Southern Bellz]

And the only thing that statement will accomplish is the new government or old one won't talk to us.

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[Kris Kringle]

The truth is that at this point we can't keep talking in term of the KRO, because not a single person in the broader NS world recognises it anymore and because it will impair the our chances of developing a sensible relationship with the region of Osiris. We have a chance to engage this in a productive way and without alienating a regime that, whether we like it or not, will remain there for a while. We need not and should not give them our full support, but we should keep cordial relations with them. That statement will accomplish just the opposite.

 

Also, I object to any politisation of the World Fair. Sure, there should be political debates, but they must be in the larger context of the Fair and not included in a political statement from our government.

[Sandaoguo]

I have a lot of issues with this statement that I will discuss when I get home. I will sau that the KRO no longer exists and never will again. Continuing to grasp on to that regime is not good foreign policy.

 

It's not good foreign policy to recognize unconstitutional regimes. We don't recognize the post-KRO regime because neither Astarial nor Venico returned Osiris to democratic governance. The Cabinet isn't "grasping" onto the KRO. We're standing firm in our position that you can't coup a GCR and expect to considered legitimate just because time has passed and people's memories have gotten muddled.

 

I'm stating right now that I will not stand with the Cabinet if you guys decide to support Venico. It is a terrible position to take that goes against everything GCRs have working for when it comes to coups and GCR sovereignty.

 

 

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Also, I object to any politisation of the World Fair. Sure, there should be political debates, but they must be in the larger context of the Fair and not included in a political statement from our government.

 

The NS World Fair has a inherent political element to it. I don't see anything wrong with us saying that GCRs should discuss security issues during the fair. If you want to write up a statement about the fair itself to issue at the same time, moving that clause over, feel free!

 

 

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And the only thing that statement will accomplish is the new government or old one won't talk to us.


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Why do we want them to talk to us right now? They are an unconstitutional regime that we don't recognize under current policy. When the lsat Cabinet published the last statement, there was an acceptance that the regime wouldn't talk to us -- we accepted it because we believed that there wasn't anything to talk about. There's actually nothing new in my draft. I've reiterate what we've already said about the Astarial regime. Venico is just a continuation of Asta's coup.

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[Southern Bellz]

Because instead of pushing them away from what we ultimately would like to see, we can push them toward it.

Do you think someone would respond better to statements in public telling them what to do or being approached in private about our concerns with the ultimate goal of having relations with an Osiris that is free?

Issuing statements hasn't worked well for us, and doing the same thing and expecting new results wont cut it.

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[Kris Kringle]

I'm not calling for the recognition of the OFO. I'm saying it doesn't do us any good to further antagonise them. If we talk with them they might actually listen to us. They might not act on all of our concerns, but at this point we need to have actual contact with Osiris. If we are going to release a statement it should just mention (1) how concerned we are about the continuing instability in Osiris, (2) that we will be in constant communication with authorities in Osiris to find a peaceful resolution to the crisis, (3) and that we remain committed to a liberal democratic goverenment in the region.

 

On that World Fair matter, I'm not saying don't include such discussions in it. I'm saying don't mix World Fair and Cabinet statements. The World Fair can host political discussions, but should not be the place to go to for political discussions.

[Hileville]

As a note I am in contact and have been with both Venico and Raven since this whole thing started.  While no official FA discussions have happened the line of communication exists.