Osiris Coup

[Hileville]

I think we need to come to an agreement on a couple key issues before deciding on a statement.

 

1.  Should we continue to latch onto the KRO?  If yes, then who is it we actually support?  If no, then who it is we actually support?  If nobody then why continue to keep an Embassy open?

2.  Should we attempt to push a democratic government on the Osiris people if they don't want it?

3.  Do we actually wish to have improved relations with their current regime?  If so, then we have to recognize them as legitimate on our Embassy app.

4.  Is this an internal matter that we should stay out of?

[Sandaoguo]

Do you think someone would respond better to statements in public telling them what to do or being approached in private about our concerns with the ultimate goal of having relations with an Osiris that is free?

The thing for me is that if we're going to say anything public about it, we cannot provide legitimacy to Venico's or Astarial's regime. They are both the product of an unconstitutional power grab. We can't legitimize Asta's coup just because some time has passed and she's no longer the delegate.

 

Now, the other issue is that I think it would be a bad idea to not issue a statement. What I see happening is that all the careful work people have done building up a norm against GCR coups is going out the window. Gameplay is aligning along ideological grounds, per usual, but GCRs are losing the careful space people have carved out. Supporting Venico means supporting the violation of GCR sovereignty. Months ago, you would not see people voicing full support of Venico's action. But this game is becoming more and more ideological, and that threatens to destroy the safe zone GCRs have created for themselves. So when so many big organizations and regions are coming out in support of that, we need to show that this isn't some kind of new consensus. GCR sovereignty is still sacrosanct.

 

@Hile: Nobody is "latching on" to the KRO! It's gone. Poof. Done forever. That doesn't mean we recognize the dissolution of the KRO as legitimate and constitutional.

[Hileville]

Again if we aren't supporting Venico WHO IS IT WE ARE GOING TO SUPPORT?

 

If the KRO is gone and their Government non-existent who do we support?  Saying the "natives" or the "Osirian People" doesn't answer that question.  The people who dissolved the KRO were natives and people of Osiris.  The people who have instituted this change in Government are natives and Osirians.

[Sandaoguo]

Again if we aren't supporting Venico WHO IS IT WE ARE GOING TO SUPPORT?

Nobody! We don't have to support anybody, if there isn't a legitimate, constitutional regime to support!

[Kris Kringle]

Let's discuss then what do we expect from a hypothetical legitimate regime in Osiris. We should know what we want before not recognizing something. Then we should get constructively proactive about it and talk to the new regime about our concerns. We get nothing from simply rejecting the regime.

[Hileville]

Well what defines a legitimate constitutional regime?

[Sandaoguo]

We should want Osiris to turn to democratic and constitutional governance. That means a popular constitution (ie. written & passed by all citizens), and free and fair elections. That would earn them a kind of probationary recognition -- we're optimistic, but cautious. When the region experiences 2 peaceful transitions of power following free, fair and democratic elections, then we can be confident that Osiris' democracy is healthy and can extend full recognition and cooperation. Until then, we're just going to go to bed with power-seekers, and we're going to suffer consequences for that.

[Hileville]

Here is a statement written by Escade, Kris and I and approved by Awe.

 

Statement from the Cabinet of the South Pacific

in regards to the events occurring in Osiris

 
The Cabinet of the Coalition of the South Pacific is aware of and continues to monitor the current situation in Osiris.  We would like to express our belief that Osiris holds an important place in intra-regional politics. It, like the rest of the GCRs, is an embodiment of the values of democracy. We promote safe, happy, and active communities in all regions but particularly those with members who have spent considerable time and effort in building positive experiences for all their members. 


 
The Cabinet will continue to work towards improved relations with Osiris.  We stand with the people of Osiris in this troubling time.  We formally recognize the ongoing situation as an internal matter and wish the region the best of luck at resolving it.  We look forward to seeing Osiris rebuild itself in the image that it desires, one where the community feels secure, engaged, and satisfied with the course taken.


 

Thank You,
The Cabinet of the South Pacific

[Hileville]

For future statements I would like to use the CoA Elu created.  He is going to update them over the weekend to reflect the new flag.

 

http://security.thesouthpacific.org/imag...et-med.png  << Original

[Escade]

I fully support this statement.  If any cabinet member has any issue with any part of it, please make sure to arrange a meeting with me on IRC or Skype before derailing this thread needlessly.

[Southern Bellz]

Seems good mostly, the only thing I want to mention is that The Pacific, The West Pacific, and Laz all aren't democracies, and might take issue with that part of the statement.

[Sandaoguo]

It's not an "internal matter."I don't support that statement at all. Osiris is basically a colony of The Brotherhood of Malice. To become a citizen of the "new" Osiris, you have to swear a loyalty oath to BOM. 

 

That statement is weak. If that's the statement you guys want to release, then you might as well not release a statement at all. It sends a signal that TSP doesn't care. It tells BOM that TSP basically recognizing them as the government of Osiris. That is contrary to current Cabinet policy. It is contrary to what the Assembly said when it repealed the Osiris treaty.

 

Furthermore, Osiris is not the embodiment of democracy. The reason we're talking about this is because democracy has failed over and over in the region. That statement paints a rosy and naive picture of Osiris that simply doesn't exist.

 

It's a disappointment to see the new Cabinet be so soft on such a serious issue. I fly out in a few hours, so I'm probably not going to be here today to argue against it. But consider this my official vote against releasing that statement. I can't and won't stand behind it if you guys decide to publish it.

[Hileville]

Seems good mostly, the only thing I want to mention is that The Pacific, The West Pacific, and Laz all aren't democracies, and might take issue with that part of the statement.

I thought about that.  I'm not so concerned with what TP and TWP think though.

[Kris Kringle]

You know Glen, I'd certainly like to know what exactly do you mean by "not stand behind it" in public.

That said, what's going on in Osiris really is an internal matter, though with effects in their foreign affairs. With that statement we are basically saying that until we are satisfied that the government in Osiris fulfills all those objectives of providing for a peaceful, democratic and positive community we can't recognize them. I'm not quite sure what's objectionable about that.

SB: Yes, perhaps that part should me amended. I'll do it later this morning is someone hasn't done it already.

[Sandaoguo]

You know Glen, I'd certainly like to know what exactly do you mean by "not stand behind it" in public.

It means that I will let the community know I do not support the Cabinet's decision.

 

That said, what's going on in Osiris really is an internal matter, though with effects in their foreign affairs. With that statement we are basically saying that until we are satisfied that the government in Osiris fulfills all those objectives of providing for a peaceful, democratic and positive community we can't recognize them. I'm not quite sure what's objectionable about that.

That isn't what the statement is saying at all. There's no condemnation of the purges. No mention that it's a coup. No disappointment with the failure of democracy. This is an incredibly weak statement that walks back on years of work condemning GCR coups. It is an absolute failure of foreign policy. I think you guys are simply being too good-willed for your own good. There's a certain naivete in the statement, but the biggest issue is that you guys don't actually want to condemn Venico's action. Hileville supports them, and indeed has already joined their forums and swore their loyalty oath. It's very disappointing. You guys are preparing to ruin the long-standing norm against GCR coups, and I don't understand why.

[Hileville]

How about just removing the Democracy line and merging the beginning with the follow sentence?

 

Statement from the Cabinet of the South Pacific

in regards to the events occurring in Osiris

 
The Cabinet of the Coalition of the South Pacific is aware of and continues to monitor the current situation in Osiris.  We would like to express our belief that Osiris holds an important place in intra-regional politics. It, like the rest of the GCRs, promotes safe, happy, and active communities in all regions but particularly those with members who have spent considerable time and effort in building positive experiences for all their members. 


 
The Cabinet will continue to work towards improved relations with Osiris.  We stand with the people of Osiris in this troubling time.  We formally recognize the ongoing situation as an internal matter and wish the region the best of luck at resolving it.  We look forward to seeing Osiris rebuild itself in the image that it desires, one where the community feels secure, engaged, and satisfied with the course taken.


 

Thank You,
The Cabinet of the South Pacific

[Sandaoguo]

For me, there has to be a clear condemnation of what Venico has done. It was a coup. The Brotherhood of Malice is violating GCR sovereignty. Condemning Venico doesn't mean supporting The Empire, either. They are also a toxic group of players that were ruining Osiris. 

 

We should support efforts to foster democracy in the region, too. We shouldn't be afraid to say, "Democracy is the best option for Osiris." 

 

These are my suggested revisions:

 

The Cabinet of the Coalition of the South Pacific is aware of and continues to monitor the current troubling
situation in Osiris.  We would like to express our belief that Osiris holds an important place in inter
-regional affairs
. It, like the rest of the GCRs, should 
promote safe, happy, and active communities in all regions, but particularly those with members who have spent considerable time and effort in building positive experiences for all their members. 
 
The Cabinet will continue to work towards improved relations with Osiris, following the return to popular constitutional governance, and free, fair and democratic elections, as promised by the temporary caretaker government after the dissolution of the Kemetic Republic of Osiris
.  We stand with the natives
 of Osiris in this troubling time,<b> and condemn the subjugation of the region by the Brotherhood of Malice. The Gameplay community has worked for years to protect the idea of GCR sovereignty, and we cannot support such a serious violation of the norm.</b>


 

We look forward to seeing Osiris rebuild itself in the image that it desires, one where the community feels secure, engaged, and satisfied with the course taken.

[Southern Bellz]

Those edits are way too aggressive, imo. I'll make full comments tonight.

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[Kris Kringle]

^ Will comment in a couple of hours.

[Sandaoguo]

Those edits are way too aggressive, imo. I'll make full comments tonight.



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Are they wrong? Do we not condemn the Brotherhood of Malice?



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[Hileville]

Yeah no to the condemnation.  It should be inter-regional though which is honestly what I read it as.  I also do not support the change of people to natives.  I hate the over usage of natives in GP.  There is not clear definition of a native of a region and can be and has been constructed and manipulated to fit the moment.

 

This is an internal civil war.  Not recognizing it as such will further damage our relations with Osiris.

[Hileville]

Statement from the Cabinet of the South Pacific

in regards to the events occurring in Osiris

 

The Cabinet of the Coalition of the South Pacific is aware of and continues to monitor the ongoing situation in Osiris.  We would like to express our belief that Osiris holds an important place in inter-regional politics. It, like the rest of the GCRs, should promotes safe, happy, and active communities in all regions but particularly those with members who have spent considerable time and effort in building positive experiences for all their members.

 

The Cabinet is committed to improving relations with Osiris upon the establishment of a Constitution.  We stand with the people of Osiris during these trying times.  The Cabinet officially recognizes the ongoing conflict as an internal matter and wish the region the best of luck at a speedy resolution.  We look forward to seeing Osiris rebuild itself in the image that it desires, one where the community feels secure, engaged, and satisfied with the course taken.

 

Thank You,
The Cabinet of the South Pacific

[Southern Bellz]

That statement combined with a private communication asking about this new governments plans, and saying that we want to eventually have relations with Osi but not if the foreign armies will be there long term.

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[Hileville]

I guess I should have prefaced this with the fact that Escade, Kris, and I met with Venico and discussed those exact things last night.  I was really tired when we drafted the original statement.

 

I will post answers to the questions we asked when I can pull the logs a later this afternoon.

[Sandaoguo]

Not condemning even the Brotherhood of Malice is a nonstarter for me. This is an utter failure of leadership.

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