FFS

[Awesomiasa]

 

Bel: Adios

[12:38am] Zyvetskistaahn: Goodbye, my Emperor

[12:38am] • Raven|AFK waves

[12:39am] Bel is now known as Rex-Imperator.

[12:39am] Asta: byeeee belly

[12:39am] • Rex-Imperator cackles manically

[12:39am] Rex-Imperator left the chat room.

[12:44am] Todd_McCloud left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 186 seconds)

[12:46am] Todd_McCloud joined the chat room.

[12:46am] Todd_McCloud was promoted to operator by NyanServ.

[12:52am] frattastan: I had forgotten WZ Europe was part of the Astarialn Empire.

[12:53am] Todd_McCloud left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 380 seconds)

[12:53am] Zyvetskistaahn: What do you mean Fratt

[12:53am] Zyvetskistaahn: <.<

[12:53am] Zyvetskistaahn: >.>

[12:53am] Zyvetskistaahn: Nothing is happening over there

[12:53am] Zyvetskistaahn: <.<

[12:53am] Zyvetskistaahn: >.>

[12:55am] Raven|AFK:

[12:56am] frattastan: >_>

[12:56am] Mall joined the chat room.

[12:56am] Zyvetskistaahn: Hail Mall

[12:56am] Awe: Nights guys!

[12:57am] Awe: DON'T YOU GUYS DARE TRY ANYTHING FUNNY WHILE I'M GONE

[12:57am] Mall: HAIL

[12:57am] Zyvetskistaahn: Hurry, try everything funny

[12:57am] Mall: Awe I'll coup here again

[12:57am] Zyvetskistaahn: <.<

[12:57am] Awe: IF YOU GUYS DO, I WILL CARRY OUT IMMEDIATE MEASURES TO RECALL BELSCHAFT

[12:57am] Zyvetskistaahn: But there's a coup already going on Mall

[12:57am] Zyvetskistaahn: I mean

[12:57am] Awe: Thanks and goodnight

[12:57am] Zyvetskistaahn: "Joke" coup

[12:57am] Zyvetskistaahn: <.<

[12:57am] Zyvetskistaahn: >.>

[12:57am] Mall: 0 bans, 0 coups.

[12:58am] Zyvetskistaahn: SOON Mall

[12:58am] Zyvetskistaahn: SOON

[12:58am] Mall: 2,000+ bans, my coup

[12:58am] Mall: SOON

[12:58am] Awe: Screenshotted and logs

[12:58am] Awe: logged*

[12:58am] Zyvetskistaahn: Bah

[12:58am] Mall: hrm?

[12:59am] Zyvetskistaahn: The Holy Flemingovian Empire, Mall, it has spread to TSP

[12:59am] Glen-Rhodes: i made some flagz

[12:59am] Glen-Rhodes: http://forums.thesouthpacific.org/topic/.../?p=105200

[12:59am] Raven|AFK: The funny thing is, Awe is completely serious.

[01:00am] Mall: About what Raven?

[01:00am] Awe: I don't care if this was a joke

[01:00am] Zyvetskistaahn: About recalling Bel

[01:00am] Awe: I don't find it funny

[01:00am] Raven|AFK: And having us all impeached.

[01:00am] Mall: What's wrong with bel?

[01:00am] Zyvetskistaahn: He has "couped"

[01:00am] Mall: If bel was couping, I would have been the first to know.

[01:01am] Awe: If there is even the slightest probability of a coup, the TSP community will resist against it

[01:01am] Zyvetskistaahn: Its not a real coup

[01:01am] Zyvetskistaahn: not yet

[01:01am] Awe: In any way necessary

[01:01am] Zyvetskistaahn: But SOON

[01:01am] Awe: Legal or otherwise

[01:01am] Mall: SOON

More logs, just to use this as an evidence locker.

[Awesomiasa]

I also direct members of the TSP Community to this link which may provide some backstory about what has occurred. I suppose that we should, in traditional SPINN fashion, carry out live reporting of the supposed joke that is transpiring.

[Lord Ravenclaw]

(For the record, the puppet which published the article above belongs to myself^)

[Kris Kringle]

I have to agree with what SB said: not all TSPers knew about this 'inside joke' and a lot had reason to suspect that this could be a coup. I will also have to disagree with what Bel said in that telling others in advance would kill the joke. While I do like the idea of the RP itself (and I've said it several times), the manner in which it began was far from the best. Was this a coup simulation or an innocent monarchical RP? Because there was no reason to not give us a heads up unless it was the former. Further, not all TSPers hang on the IRC (I for one use it once a month or so and even then for a few minutes) or on other region's forums and thus had no reason to know about this.


 

Referring to Bel's comment on calling himself Emperor and still being the Delegate, in principle I disagree. It's cool to do it as part of RP (though I still hate having an Emperor in TSP), but I don't believe you can call yourself whatever you want and still be something else. Some country's president can't just call himself emperor. There is a reason for calling him president in the first place, and that has to be respected.


 

I know all links in the WFE are still there and that there were no ejections. Still NS has been through enough coups during the past months and it would have been better to run this with advance notification. I don't see how that would have ruined the joke, as I don't think the surprise was needed. Even if so, after the fact an explanation would have been in order. I agree with B&N though, it's good to know that our residents are so dedicated to defending our democratic order whenever the need arises.

[Letoilenoir]

 It's an inside joke, not likely to be understood by people who don't do gameplay or people who aren't aware what is happening in other regions.

 

Isn't it about time that our leaders woke up to the fact that it is precisely this perceived existence of a cabal that undermines confidence in the transparency that has been promised to the region following the Milo fiasco?

 

Play your in-jokes on each other by all means but please don't drag the region into it in such a public fashion - if this were a regulated sport charges of behaviour bringing the region into disrepute would not be out of place

[Brutland and Norden]

 

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Brutland and Norden" data-cid="105189" data-time="1378568585">
<div>
 It's an inside joke, not likely to be understood by people who don't do gameplay or people who aren't aware what is happening in other regions.

 

Isn't it about time that our leaders woke up to the fact that it is precisely this perceived existence of a cabal that undermines confidence in the transparency that has been promised to the region following the Milo fiasco?

 

Play your in-jokes on each other by all means but please don't drag the region into it in such a public fashion - if this were a regulated sport charges of behaviour bringing the region into disrepute would not be out of place

 

</div>
</blockquote>
Don't blame me - I'm not part of the joke. In fact, I am so dismayed that they were doing this on my birthday - a day which is historically an unlucky day for me. I "got" the "joke" only because I look at Osiris' RMB often.

[Bundesdeutschland]

This joke, or what ever it is, doesn't appeal to me. Seems more like a coup...or something. Either way, I feel this mockery must stop. It's not that funny.

[HEM]

Anybody who wants to claim that this was "obviously" a joke is going to need to get reacquainted with reality.

 

I think most of us, knowing Bels, and seeing the WFE still containing the forum link etc. were fairly sure it was a joke. But it wasn't obvious, and it wasn't certain.

 

I understand that this was a joke, but it was in poor taste. Full stop. Period. End of story. If it were April Fools Day, or we had an obscure announcement a few days ago that vaguely hinted at it, that would be another story. As it is, I'm not amused.

 

If you want to improve activity, if you want to get nations on the forum, this isn't really an effective way to do that. Let's ditch the roleplay and look at better (and less obscure) ways to integrate citizens.

[Bundesdeutschland]

This is bad...very bad...

[Libetarian Republics]

I'm backing Bel on this one. He didn't do anything wrong, legally. The fact that you guys are bothered by this move is a great example of promoting activity. Some controversies here and there. You guys are screaming for less "obscure" ways to promote activity; why don't you suggest it then? Bel has gladly been doing it the way it has always been and hasn't achieved much. Then when something "new" is implemented, it gets shot down instantly.

[Kris Kringle]

The problem here is that we were all expected to know it was a joke without being in on it. Like B&N and HEM said, there was some evidence here and there to know that it wasn't a coup, but there average citizen doesn't know Bel that well and doesn't check the Osiris RMB. From the outside this looked like a new Delegate instituting himself as emperor, and we had had that just a few months ago.
I don't mind the idea of this joke in itself, but it was carried out in a manner that left a lot to be desired. Having a monarchical RP is great to promote active citizens, but citizens must know it's a RP to begin with. Otherwise I can't blame them for being preoccupied. I was too before "guessing" it wasn't an actual coup, and even then I was just guessing. I think SB said a few hours ago, and I agree with her: the joke is funnier when one knows it's a joke.

[Kris Kringle]

[quote name="Libetarian Republics" post="105212" timestamp="1378593111"]
I'm backing Bel on this one. He didn't do anything wrong, legally. The fact that you guys are bothered by this move is a great example of promoting activity. Some controversies here and there. You guys are screaming for less "obscure" ways to promote activity; why don't you suggest it then? Bel has gladly been doing it the way it has always been and hasn't achieved much. Then when something "new" is implemented, it gets shot down instantly.[/quote]
You just can't pretend to institute an empire in a region, even as a joke and even more given recent events here and in Osiris, and not tell the region about it before the fact. I don't mind his idea but the implementation was terrible. What do we propose? Just that he tells us beforehand! Nothing less than that!

[Libetarian Republics]

The problem here is that we were all expected to know it was a joke without being in on it. Like B&N and HEM said, there was some evidence here and there to know that it wasn't a coup, but there average citizen doesn't know Bel that well and doesn't check the Osiris RMB. From the outside this looked like a new Delegate instituting himself as emperor, and we had had that just a few months ago. I don't mind the idea of this joke in itself, but it was carried out in a manner that left a lot to be desired. Having a monarchical RP is great to promote active citizens, but citizens must know its a RP to begin with. Otherwise I can't blame them for being preoccupied. I was too before "guessing" it wasn't an actual coup, and even then I was just guessing. I think SB said a few hours ago, and I agree with her: the joke is funnier when one knows it's a joke.

The average citizen doesn't need to know Bel to know that it wasn't a coup. There wasn't any ejection and there was a clear link to the forum. Bel has been Delegate and has been known to be the new delegate for a while now. He's only saying that he's Emperor but he's only actually Delegate legally. 

 

 

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Libetarian Republics" data-cid="105212" data-time="1378593111">
I'm backing Bel on this one. He didn't do anything wrong, legally. The fact that you guys are bothered by this move is a great example of promoting activity. Some controversies here and there. You guys are screaming for less "obscure" ways to promote activity; why don't you suggest it then? Bel has gladly been doing it the way it has always been and hasn't achieved much. Then when something "new" is implemented, it gets shot down instantly.

You just can't pretend to institute an empire in a region, even as a joke and even more given recent events here and in Osiris, and not tell the region about it before the fact. I don't mind his idea but the implementation was terrible. What do we propose? Just that he tells us beforehand! Nothing less than that!
 


</blockquote>
The Delegate is already accountable by the Assembly by law already and restricting him to "inform" the Assembly of any such action is unnecessary.

[Kris Kringle]

I wouldn't expect Bel to begin ejections. I knew it was a joke and I saw the signs, but you CAN'T expect all others to see them. There is a reason why a role play is called like that. The assumption is that all participants know its a role.
There is a reason why the Delegate is called like that and not emperor. If he wanted to call himself emperor the he should make clear from the start that it's just a joke. Besides, this is not about him informing the Assembly, this is about the Head of State of The South Pacific informing all residents when he is going to pretend that the region will become an empire. That is not restricting him, that is making him act responsibly given what this and other regions have gone through recently.

[HEM]

I'm backing Bel on this one. He didn't do anything wrong, legally. The fact that you guys are bothered by this move is a great example of promoting activity. Some controversies here and there. You guys are screaming for less "obscure" ways to promote activity; why don't you suggest it then? Bel has gladly been doing it the way it has always been and hasn't achieved much. Then when something "new" is implemented, it gets shot down instantly.

 

If the only idea we have around here to promote activity is to change the WFE, I would be very concerned indeed.

 

"Not doing anything wrong legally" isn't the bar I am holding my elected officials to. A Delegate who fails to break any laws isn't automatically a good delegate (and you can substitute Delegate for any other position too. Not just picking on Bels in that regards).

 

I'm not saying this needs to be a criminal offense or that Bels needs to resign, or anything like that. It was a mistake. I am just saying that I personally do not approve and I believe I have full right to hold and express that view.

[Libetarian Republics]

I wouldn't expect Bel to begin ejections. I knew it was a joke and I saw the signs, but you CAN'T expect all others to see them. There is a reason why a role play is called like that. The assumption is that all participants know its a role. There is a reason why the Delegate is called like that and not emperor. If he wanted to call himself emperor the he should make clear from the start that it's just a joke. Besides, this is not about him informing the Assembly, this is about the Head of State of The South Pacific informing all residents when he is going to pretend that the region will become an empire. That is not restricting him, that is making him act responsibly given what this and other regions have gone through recently.

I'm not expecting everyone to get the joke. That would be ridiculous. Bel has been dedicated to TSP for quite a while and has been vocally supportive against Milo's coup. I'll repeat my statement; no ejections and a clear link to our forums. How is that still irresponsible if the context of the WFE is changed?

[Belschaft]

And so, due a surprisingly hostile forum reaction, The Flemingovian Empire ends early. A shame, really; I was looking forward to flirting outrageously with The Empress for a couple more days.

 

A few observations;

1. There is a serious disconnection between the forum, game and IRC TSP communities; IRC got the joke instantly and found it highly amusing. There's only been one IRCite who's objected so far, and the rest seem somewhat bemused that the forums reacted so negatively. In game, the response was slightly more mixed but largely positive; I haven't lost a single endorsement or received any angry TG's about this. The outrage is entirely restrained to the forum community.
   
2. Despite what people are saying about it not being clear it was a joke/roleplay, I disagree. Not one person reacted as they would in a genuine coup situation, and judging by the communications I received it was pretty clear to everyone what it was. It may have taken some longer than others, but the central idea was communicated adequately. The 'average' citizen and resident was quite able to get their heads around it. 
   
3. People need to chillax a bit. I have been extremely surprised at the attitude of people to this; the TSP I know was a laid-back place with a good sense of humor and an openness to a bit of RMB/WFE wackiness, not somewhere were court action is threatened willy nilly; this is not TNP FFS.
   
4. The central objection appears to be communication; that I didn't give advance warning of something I surprised the region with, that I didn't spell out the joke entirely to the point where there was nothing left to guess or wonder about. Firstly, if that's your issue then I think you have rather missed the point of surprises. Secondly, I disagree regarding the communication issue. Ignoring the fact that I contend that the nature of the joke was adequately communicated in of itself without further explanation, when I went to bed everyone around was fully aware that it was a joke, either from working it out or by asking me for clarification; when I woke up I proceeded to respond to all TG's I had asking for such, and posted here and on the RMB. Communication was not an issue to my mind.
   

 

Now, I continue to firmly believe that regional activities that combine the game, forum and IRC communities are a good thing, will promote activity - that we seriously need - and help bind TSP together. As I've said before, I mentioned this kind of thing in my campaign so you should hardly be surprised that I'm doing it. This one failed, largely because of the way the forum reacted to it. The next one will be less impromptu, but there is no guarantee you will receive any more notice when I next spring a surprise event on the region.

 

Don't like that? Tough bloody luck. I'm not going to stop trying to build activity across the regional community because some people didn't like this event; the majority did.

[Sierra Lobo]

The WFE is back to normal. =/ And I need to hide my monarchist jester hat again.

 

*sob*

[Bundesdeutschland]

There's really nothing wrong with a joke; honestly, there isn't. I'm kind of sorry for being so harsh earlier, personally, but I think it's the Milograd coup that got our humor heads over heels. Or should I say upside-down frown?

[Kris Kringle]

I did like the joke itself and would've loved to participate in should it have continued, but I have to agree with others in that declaring oneself Emperor (still hate that title) and having the region become a dual empire with Osiris was a bit extreme, not in itself but as a consequence of the context of our region given recent events. I agree that we need more activities to integrate our communities and I concede that there was an overreaction, but I can relate to some of that overreaction  Perhaps it would have been better to start with some less extreme RPs so that when this one happened we would know that there were specific tendencies leading to it. I know that this was a spur of the moment, Bel, but there is truth to both points of view here. I know that the campaign mentioned engaging citizens in several activities, but I don't think we foresaw that these activities would include something like this.

 

It was a great idea but it could use some improvements regarding its implementation. MoRA at the least should have been notified. I think Escade, as Minister of Regional Affairs, did have a need to know about this beforehand, never mind spoiling the 'surprise' for her. I do look forward to something similar though, as now that we know it IS a joke we can have fun with it.

[Escade]

<div>
And so, due a surprisingly hostile forum reaction, The Flemingovian Empire ends early. A shame, really; I was looking forward to flirting outrageously with The Empress for a couple more days.

 

A few observations;

1. There is a serious disconnection between the forum, game and IRC TSP communities; IRC got the joke instantly and found it highly amusing. There's only been one IRCite who's objected so far, and the rest seem somewhat bemused that the forums reacted so negatively. In game, the response was slightly more mixed but largely positive; I haven't lost a single endorsement or received any angry TG's about this. The outrage is entirely restrained to the forum community.
   
2. Despite what people are saying about it not being clear it was a joke/roleplay, I disagree. Not one person reacted as they would in a genuine coup situation, and judging by the communications I received it was pretty clear to everyone what it was. It may have taken some longer than others, but the central idea was communicated adequately. The 'average' citizen and resident was quite able to get their heads around it. 
   
3. People need to chillax a bit. I have been extremely surprised at the attitude of people to this; the TSP I know was a laid-back place with a good sense of humor and an openness to a bit of RMB/WFE wackiness, not somewhere were court action is threatened willy nilly; this is not TNP FFS.
   
4. The central objection appears to be communication; that I didn't give advance warning of something I surprised the region with, that I didn't spell out the joke entirely to the point where there was nothing left to guess or wonder about. Firstly, if that's your issue then I think you have rather missed the point of surprises. Secondly, I disagree regarding the communication issue. Ignoring the fact that I contend that the nature of the joke was adequately communicated in of itself without further explanation, when I went to bed everyone around was fully aware that it was a joke, either from working it out or by asking me for clarification; when I woke up I proceeded to respond to all TG's I had asking for such, and posted here and on the RMB. Communication was not an issue to my mind.
   

 

Now, I continue to firmly believe that regional activities that combine the game, forum and IRC communities are a good thing, will promote activity - that we seriously need - and help bind TSP together. As I've said before, I mentioned this kind of thing in my campaign so you should hardly be surprised that I'm doing it. This one failed, largely because of the way the forum reacted to it. The next one will be less impromptu, but there is no guarantee you will receive any more notice when I next spring a surprise event on the region.

 

Don't like that? Tough bloody luck. I'm not going to stop trying to build activity across the regional community because some people didn't like this event; the majority did.

 

 

My thoughts on this whole situation:  I saw the pink\purple and thought it was some of kind of RP or show of solidarity for events in Osiris (although I wasn't sure what exactly).  I had a slight moment of nervousness and confusion but I was too busy in RL to follow events.  It is back to school time for many people and stress levels might be high.

 

However, I can understand the hostile reactions because we are so very pro democracy in TSP and sensitive to any real or perceived threats to our freedoms.  I also want to point out that I do not consider the IRC community (tiny as it is and full of the same old names\people ) to be representative of TSP. The RMB (and then the forums) constitute what I think of as the core of TSP.  The participation level on the RMB accurately gauges that this experiment did not work as intended.

 

Alerting the cabinet would have helped because let's think about what the point of the RP was:

 

Was it to share an inside joke with Osiris and TNP, both regions which I and many TSPers don't know much about nor do we follow in any way? Or an inside IRC joke?  For whatever his flaws Milograd was right that TSP did have an "old timers" mentality and is still working its way out of that shell. 

 

Or was the point to encourage some RP within the TSP community and it's residents?  If the RP was indeed for the residents then notifying the cabinet would have been helpful because we could "play" roles and engage in the shenanigans.  At the moment of the WFE change a quick mass TG to the cabinet would let us know what was going on and give us a chance to play along.  We could also assuage the fears of those who see coups all around and worry that TSP will be harmed.

 

I've already made the point elsewhere that communication between the TSP government is abysmal.  We need, as a cabinet, to get information to each other before the fact rather than afterwards.

 

I think Bel pointed out that this was a failed attempt and I agree.  

 

TSP has its brand of crazy and its lampshades, however some of our most active members have posted here that they did not enjoy a role play that was ill-conceived and made them feel insecure and afraid in TSP.  That is not something I would wish to encourage. Our goal is not to tell members, "You didn't enjoy it, oh well too bad either get with the program or get out." At least I hope that isn't our point. I take each TSPer, resident or citizen, at their words and try to empathize rather than attack them for "not getting it bro, cuz' you aint cool enough."

 

Trying to increase activity is a goal that all of us in the cabinet are invested in and we know how difficult it is to increase participation.  However, at the end of the day our RPs or other surprise events should work for TSP and grow organically out of our residents interests. They most definitely shouldn't lead to alienation or anyone feeling like they got a big FU to their face.  

 

On behalf of MoRA, I'd like to apologize to anyone who was offended, frightened, or otherwise alienated due to the recent events and hope that in the future our RPs will be more suitable to our residents and citizens interests. Please feel free to post your thoughts on the RMB (use a puppet nation if you would like anonymity) or TG me if you have any concerns. 

 

Best of luck to all those who are excited and hyper about school starting next week!

 

 

 

 

 

 

</div>

[HEM]

 

Now, I continue to firmly believe that regional activities that combine the game, forum and IRC communities are a good thing, will promote activity - that we seriously need - and help bind TSP together. As I've said before, I mentioned this kind of thing in my campaign so you should hardly be surprised that I'm doing it. This one failed, largely because of the way the forum reacted to it. The next one will be less impromptu, but there is no guarantee you will receive any more notice when I next spring a surprise event on the region.

<p style="font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;font-size:14px;"> 

<p style="font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;font-size:14px;">Don't like that? Tough bloody luck. I'm not going to stop trying to build activity across the regional community because some people didn't like this event; the majority did.

 

Oh Jesus weeps..

 

Are you capable of taking any form of constructive criticism at all? I don't think anybody in this thread has unilaterally condemned you in anyway; but nevertheless here you are running madly forth, swinging your arms wildly at your would-be-forum-detractors.

 

I love cultural events, but the key is to make them so outlandish that they are funny. I know once in Europeia we had a "Soviet day" and changed the whole theme of the forum to a communist paradise. There was a countdown on the forum table that counted down to "??????", so nobody was surprised at the joke and everyone knew it was fake. Something like *that* would be a very good idea.

 

Also: If I don't like it, "tough bloody luck?" You're taking to your fellow region mates here Bels. You are talking to your friends. From a political standpoint, you are talking to the people who have all the votes. If I don't like it -- which I certainly don't like your petty attitude -- I'll vote for the other guy. Don't talk to us like we are disobedient children who are foolishly annoying dad. We are worth more than what you've given us in this thread.


And finally -- Bels -- if the cornerstone of your plan to "build activity across the regional community" is to change the WFE, then I am extremely concerned about the ideas fueling this administration. Extremely concerned indeed.

[Kris Kringle]

OK. I feel compelled to mention this because it seems to be at the core of this issue now. Some months ago Belschaft mentioned on the RMB that he probably wouldn't be elected Delegate again because he could not take criticism well and was far too outspoken (in fact until I saw his platform I didn't intend to vote for him due to that fact). So far his actions have contradicted that statement, but this last incident seems to take back all progress.
You should, Belschaft, recognise that your idea of implementation was not the best, and that the point of democracy is precisely to criticise our government not only because it is our right, but rather because it is our duty when we seem something to be wrong.
I don't think we just passed a Bill of Rights that enshrined the right of residents to contribute to the government to have our Delegate tell us "tough bloody luck" when we try to contribute. HEM has even contributed with a specific idea of building up expectation to an event, and that is something worth listening to. Otherwise you might as well propose that we repeal the Bill of Rights.

[karatengisa]

I want to propose adding a new amendment to our Charter, the members elected (that includes the Delegate) should not abuse the powers he was given by the people.

[Sierra Lobo]

I think we have exhausted all the drama here. The community has voiced its concerns and the delegate took noticed and made appropriate changes. I do not see anything that bels did, unpopular as it is here, would warrant a censure; nor, do we need more mistrust to come out from this.